Can anyone offer proof that K&N is inferior?

[unDummy]

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/1/
http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/filters_test/2/

For simple drop-in filter replacement, I really don't care which air filter is used as long as it isn't overused. I just haven't seen or felt real performance gains when all the OEM stock air-filtering-assembly components are being used. Daily driver, that is maintained, doesn't need anything special.

With all the 'performance' filter kits available that rip out OEM intake mufflers, convoluted accordion piping, tiny airboxes, poor/small air inlet location, OEM hot air intakes, ..... what else would you use?
I'm more likely going to see some other failure and not worry about air filtering. Other failures include too much RPM, timing, boost, heat, n2o,........which are bigger problems.

Besides overusing a filter, the other issues, like proper care, cleaning, oiling, seem to be more of a problem. With the lack of common sense that I see every day, I really simply wouldn't recommend ANY oiled filter.

 

[Tempest]

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To the people who keep talking about mpg changes between filters. In most cases it just isnt going to happen in a gasoline engine. Why? A gas engine is air throttled. If the filter is more restrictive the throttle blade opens a little farther. Less restrictive and the throttle blade closes a little. Exactly the same amount of pumping losses for a given hp output and the ECM in most cases will maintain the fuel/air mixture at the same ratio.

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Probably the best info in the whole thread.

 

[unDummy]

Actually, without knowing the OEM ECM algorithms, one can't even state that MPG won't be affected. My cars have TPS's and A/F ratio is also affected by throttle position.
Pedal to the floor with a completely clogged air filter will yield worse MPG then 1/4 throttle with a free flowing airfilter. If you want proof, bring your car over. I have a shovel and plenty of yard dirt to show you the power and MPG loss with a dirty air filter. The engine will work harder to pull air through that dirty air filter. Work costs fuel. Maintaining that A/F ratio is meaningless when all that power is wasted drawing air through that clogged filter. Sometimes it takes 'extremes' to understand simply minor changes to a vehicle's performance.

 

[punisher]

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Sounds like you are one off the evil dealership techs that charges a person $100+ for a new MAF senser and another $50 for 'labor', instead of just cleaning the MAF sensor.

I've used K&N in 3 different cars and put over 50k on two of them to have NO problems with the MAF sensor in any of them.

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Thats a ____ of an assumption to make about me. The first time a customer's vehicle comes in under warranty with the K&N trashed MAF, it gets replaced under warranty because FoMoCo didn't have an op to clean a MAF, Ford eats it. The customer's copy of the RO gets a warning about K&Ns trashing MAFS (Ford's Special Service Bulletin) and all is happy..............until the car comes in again with another trashed MAF. Then it is straight customer pay with diag and (if the customer is lucky) a MAF CLEANING, if the MAF is trashed, the customer can pay for another,, or pay for my diag and get his own MAF, makes no difference to me.

I am glad you have had a good experience with K&Ns, more power to you. I do question your sample size, vs my sample size. We worked on dozens of K&N eqiupped vehicles a year, you have 3.

Gotta hand it to K&N advertising, they do have some diehard users. My old marketing professor would indeed be impressed.

 

[VW-MAN]

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I see oil analysis reports daily of improperly oiled or just loaded dirty nasty air filters made or cotton and syn fibers that restrict air flow. Period. Those that clean frequently and perfectly will see long service but the predominant person who uses these does not do that. Just my experience and I have used K&N for years in racing ( professional) and our personal cars. I no longer use them because a dry and sometimes cleanable media exists that I do not have to oil.

K&N fit and quality has always been exceptional.

Terry

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Terry. What is the proper service interval for a K&N type filter? When the filter is not properly maintained, which wear metals would you see an increase in a UOA?

 

[Lonnie]

I don't get the more power with a K&N. If you want more power don't you just step on the gas and more air comes in. I can only see the K&N flowing more when you get to the very end of the rpm band. Then I'm sure it flows more. But below that I don't get it. It appears the K&N then, produces better number but only in the go to jail zone. For the rest of us that don't drive that way wouldn't oem paper be the choice. Our race a bit farther than down the block bouncing off the rev limiter. K&N is an answer to a question most people don't ask.

 

[ARB1977]

I guess it depends on enviorment as well. Ive been through paper, K&N, foam, paper and now back to K&N. I can never make up my mind on what to use just like my oil.

 

[TheLoneRanger]

I use a K&N air filter on a carbed vehicle I own. So far it's done an excellent job, according to the 'tissue wipe' test on the carb. Absolutely no dust has gotten through, compared to the stock paper filter which did indeed let through dust you could feel with your finger.

I run the dry cleanable filters on my MAF equipped vehicles. When/if the K&N ever wears out, I'll probably replace it with a dry cleanable too. These filters (such as the Fram Synflow) seem to be the wave of the future.....

 

[Terry]

VW-MAN, If serviced perfectly, not too much,not too little oil and the total media covered and not micro torn, in low demand applications I have seen them go 25,000 OK. On average from what I can glean from the customers they begin restricting at 10,000 miles or so. Bees seem to like the oil or something on the media as pollen has been a major restricting contaminant.

As far as specific tribo indications in spectral analysis of wear from leaking, dust dirt or contaminants....the same as other leaky or restricted and bypassing air filters.

Sand blasted piston tops,rings, bearings, valves,valve guides, cams, lifters,depleted TBN, increasing TAN, chem contamination of the oil, rising oxidation, thickening, increased fuel dilute , lowered flash, it goes on.....

 

[rpn453]

You want proof? Hold one up to a light!

 

[Lonnie]

On heavy equipment in the desert they use paper and a housing that spins the air. All kinds of fiber and oiled foam have been tried and treated paper works best.

The part I don't understand about K&N is the air flow claim. They can only make a difference at near full throttle. At anything less, if you need more air the controls open and you get more air. Using a K&N is a risk. They are not the type of filter that comes on your engine, except in rare cases. If there is ever a problem of some kind you may win the legal battle anyhow with a K&N but you will have to go to war to do it. You will be leaving too many outs for the manufacturer of your vehicle. Buying a K&N is spending money on a one sided bet with little gain and much risk. K&N is a solution for a problem that does not exist.

 

[Steve S]

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On heavy equipment in the desert they use paper and a housing that spins the air. All kinds of fiber and oiled foam have been tried and treated paper works best.

The part I don't understand about K&N is the air flow claim. They can only make a difference at near full throttle. At anything less, if you need more air the controls open and you get more air. Using a K&N is a risk. They are not the type of filter that comes on your engine, except in rare cases. If there is ever a problem of some kind you may win the legal battle anyhow with a K&N but you will have to go to war to do it. You will be leaving too many outs for the manufacturer of your vehicle. Buying a K&N is spending money on a one sided bet with little gain and much risk. K&N is a solution for a problem that does not exist.

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It is a fools filter .Bought by people who don't really know.

 

[jmsbntz]

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You want proof? Hold one up to a light!

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I have seen the LIGHT in all of its unfiltered beauty!

 

[surfstar]

I've run a K&N clone/knockoff on my CAI for years. My Si for ~5k mi UOAs were single digits the two times I had my oil analyzed. I went back to stock to pass SMOG, and just cleaned my filter two days ago. As far as oiling, I soak the S-O-B in oil, but let it drain/dry for a day or two - NEVER had a problem with my MAF screen or wires.

Yes I did see a couple tiny holes before I oiled it. But with Si counts in the single digits, 227k miles on my engine with no oil burning or leaking; somehow I think the oiled filter is doing an okay job.

Don't really notice any MPG/performance difference, but with my CAI setup, I can take the intake off MAF-forward with one hose clamp and IAT connection. My next car I'll probably leave stock, though.

 

[surfstar]

Wow, after oiling and then re-inspecting - there's a lot of visible holes!

I think I'm going to leave the filter sitting out in my house; hoping to collect some dust on it BEFORE I install it

 

[remmious]

If I remember correctly K&N does poorly in a single or multi-pass tests for efficiency ratings. They claim the filters requires the 'pulsing' effect given off by the engine to filter properly. I just can't imagine that driving down the road that my filter sees enough (probably negliable) induction pulsing. I've seen them improve power on the dyno, so no lie there, but I can't see them filtering better than paper/syn style elements with better efficiency ratings.

 

[Steve S]

How much power and on what dino and compared to what?

 

[remmious]

Your right Steve, I didn't go into any details. I don't know how it would perform on an 'average' build but a few motors stick in my head, one was a 427 Chevy that made 615 HP (around 7600rpm) and 515 TQ. We weren't there to test air cleaners so we didn't do a lot with it. The other was a cheap style chrome cleaner with paper element and we did that just to play around with it. The big different was the height of the air lid above the carb, so it wasn't a complete fair test. Just that it helped versus his cheaper cleaner. I buy air cleaners to 'Clean Air', if I want more power or milage I would find other areas to do so. Hope I didn't mislead anyone.

Oh ya.. it was around 10 hp difference.

 

[KerryB]

High silicone, copper, and chromium
10,000mi KN cone filter
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...ge=0#Post981759

 

[XS650]

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If there was a ton of "proof" about this, wouldn't there be a class action suit?

They should post the filter efficency on their website like many of the other manufactures.. That would settle it for me.

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K&N used to have filter efficiency numbers buried someplace in their website. K&N's own numbers showed that their filters didn't filter as well as a good stock element. They took those numbers down a couple of years ago...at least I can't find them any more.