Calling all GM fans...

[sciphi]

I do like my Cruze Eco. I got it because it was the most efficient gas powered and non-hybrid car on the market at the time. It's lived up to its billing as a fun way to get good fuel economy. The interior has some small intermittent rattles after over 45k miles of driving over moonscape roads. It's also averaged over 40 mpg in that span.

Like any maker, GM makes some good cars and some duds.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
...compare an '84 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with an '84 Mazda 626. I'll give the Pontiac the 500cc advantage. It will not help. Acceleration, handling, fit and finish, materials...etc.... all go to the 626...


Yeah, I know...I was just proud of that G-body.

A friend of mine at church used to sell cars when he was younger at a local dealer that is today a Honda-only dealer, but years ago used to be a Honda-Pontiac-Cadillac dealer (imagine that). He said they were trying to sell cars like the 6000 and the Sunbird next to cars like the Accord and Civic and they just couldn't sell the Ponchos.

 

[mechanicx]

I have to disagree somewhat. GM is getting better with their latest models while Toyota is in comparison stagnating if not getting worse than when they were supposedly at their best. GM is pricing their vehicles accordingly and more expense, but you can usually work a better deal on the GM plus you should have the employee discount available.

The '12 Malibu was a heavy solid car, it's not going to be fast with the base engine. I think the new Malibu is a better car than '00 Impala or the Cruze. And if you want more room there's the new Impala coming out. If you have the right look for the pick ups, why change it much? Toyota doesn't change it's styling much and they don't even have great srtyling. I think you are focusing on the negative of the glass half empty and not seeing the postives. If you lsiten to the average no nothing who parrots what they read in the media, all you're going to hear is buy Japanese cars.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm sad to say it, but if I ever buy a new vehicle it will probably be a Toyota.


Why Toyota? Do you think that Toyota cares about you? I'm also not happy about GM's bailout, but I can assure you that Toyota would do the exact same thing as GM and Chrysler did. In fact Toyota did go to the Japanese government to secure some government backed loans. All corporations operate under the same set of rules and the rule is to make as much money as possible. Nobody's hands are clean.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/03...ed-bank-for-2b/



I'm not a Toyota fan, but you can't help but notice their reliability. My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles and he doesn't even haul anything. At least Toyotas have somewhat decent quality and are assembled in the US and help keep American jobs. GM and Chrysler always advertise their "American roots" and then outsource all their stuff to China. Chevy runs deep I guess.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I know guys who have been buying GM products for 30 years who swear they will never buy another one. A company is not loyal to you, why be loyal to them?

I doubt I will buy a GM or Chrysler vehicle in the future. What a waste of taxpayer money on those lousy corporations. I don't want to turn this into a bashing thread, but I don't like supporting companies that take American tax dollars when most of their production is overseas. GM doesn't care about you, they care about making a profit.

"American" car manufacturers aren't what they were 40 years ago. I'm sad to say it, but if I ever buy a new vehicle it will probably be a Toyota.


"Most of their production is overseas"

WHAT?

More GMs are built in the US than ever before. Unless you are counting the stuff built in China/Europe.. FOR THOSE MARKETS. I wish people would stop and think for 20 seconds. To my knowledge, right now, all GM vehicles with the exception of some 1500 Trucks (mexico) and the Buick Regal (Germany) are built in the USA or Canada. So I'm not sure where you are pulling that idea from.

Also you are saying that American cars 40 years ago were better than they are now? I'm sorry but that too, is laughable. There are people on this very forum who have stated that back in the 60s/70s Dealers sometimes had to rebuild entire parts of cars due to the terrible build quality.

Also you want to compare a Chevette to a Cruze? I'm sorry but cleary you just aren't paying attention to whats on the market.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm sad to say it, but if I ever buy a new vehicle it will probably be a Toyota.


Why Toyota? Do you think that Toyota cares about you? I'm also not happy about GM's bailout, but I can assure you that Toyota would do the exact same thing as GM and Chrysler did. In fact Toyota did go to the Japanese government to secure some government backed loans. All corporations operate under the same set of rules and the rule is to make as much money as possible. Nobody's hands are clean.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/03...ed-bank-for-2b/



I'm not a Toyota fan, but you can't help but notice their reliability. My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles and he doesn't even haul anything. At least Toyotas have somewhat decent quality and are assembled in the US and help keep American jobs. GM and Chrysler always advertise their "American roots" and then outsource all their stuff to China. Chevy runs deep I guess.

I'm sorry but that is total [censored]. See my above post. Outsource to china? What exactly are they outsourcing to china? I want you to show evidence of what you are saying. Because with the exeption of those two vehicles I mentioned above, I can't think of a single US market vehicle that is built outside the US/Canada, and there CERTAINLY aren't any chinese built vehicles on our road- GM or not.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm sad to say it, but if I ever buy a new vehicle it will probably be a Toyota.


Why Toyota? Do you think that Toyota cares about you? I'm also not happy about GM's bailout, but I can assure you that Toyota would do the exact same thing as GM and Chrysler did. In fact Toyota did go to the Japanese government to secure some government backed loans. All corporations operate under the same set of rules and the rule is to make as much money as possible. Nobody's hands are clean.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/03...ed-bank-for-2b/



I'm not a Toyota fan, but you can't help but notice their reliability. My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles and he doesn't even haul anything. At least Toyotas have somewhat decent quality and are assembled in the US and help keep American jobs. GM and Chrysler always advertise their "American roots" and then outsource all their stuff to China. Chevy runs deep I guess.

I'm sorry but that is total [censored]. See my above post. Outsource to china? What exactly are they outsourcing to china? I want you to show evidence of what you are saying. Because with the exeption of those two vehicles I mentioned above, I can't think of a single US market vehicle that is built outside the US/Canada, and there CERTAINLY aren't any chinese built vehicles on our road- GM or not.


Search through this forum for that video that was posted from youtube. It talks about how they are "partnering with China". I never said they were being based in China as a corporation, but they certainly are giving our jobs to China. Watch the entire video then comment back. And you REALLY think there aren't any vehicles on our roads being built outside the US/Canada?

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: apwillard1986
I doubt there is any wave of the future regarding internal combustion technology. I think we have taken it as far as it is going to go. It is the cheap and reliable but has never been even remotely efficient from a technical standpoint.


I have to somewhat disagree with you there, and this is something of a pet peeve of mine. EVERYBODY is all convinced that electrics and hybrids are 'more efficient than the gasoline engine.' Well... not really! there, I said it out loud.

Here's what I mean. The theoretical maximum achievable efficincy for a heat engine is right around 50%. And modern gasoline engines are coming darn close to hitting it... so the POWEREPLANT is about as efficient as you can get. So that part of your statement I agree with... what I don't agree with is the implication that there IS something better, at least in terms of using a heat engine.

A Hybrid is a SYSTEM wrapped around the powerplant, and that system boosts efficiency by a) re-capturing wasted energy through regenerative braking, and b) keeping the powerplant (gasoline or diesel engine) running in its most efficient regime.

A technicality, yes, but no matter how you slice it, there has to be a "prime mover" out there somewhere, and if that prime mover is a heat engine, it has a theoretical maximum efficiency that the gasoline engine is capable of approaching.

Now electrics and plug-in hybrids: somewhat different story there, because power generation plants can also be "hybrids" these days. Modern "Co-generation" powerplants are gas turbines turning generators, and then boilers fired by the exhaust heat of the turbine, and then using that heat to spin steam turbines to add more electricity and leaving much less heat waste to go into the cooling towers: a "system" around a different kind of heat engine, but still able to boost efficiency up towards 80% or so. The problem with the way people perceive this is that electric cars are NOT "zero emission / 80% efficiency" they're "put the emissions in someone else's back yard and take whatever efficiency the grid as a whole is operating at." If that other back yard is a co-generation powerplant like I described above- GOOD. But its more likely to be a nasty coal-fired plant that only ticks out 60% efficiency or so, compounded by the fact that the emission controls for a coal plant can suck down as much as 10% of the entire plant's power! So you're back in the ~50% regime when you're talking raw fuel -> coal plant with emission controls -> distribution losses -> charging/discharging battery losses -> the wheels of your Nissan Leaf. And if we add more and more electric cars to the grid, and demand more and more aftertreatment of coal exhaust gasses, we get in a vicious cycle- burn more coal to power more cars, and burn still MORE coal to generate the extra power needed to scrub the coal emissions.


This is just my personal engineering opinion, but I think the math backs me up: Today and for the next 5-10 years, the MOST EFFICIENT and LOWEST CARBON way to drive, is going to be a gasoline or diesel powered hybrid. Putting the "prime mover" right there in the car instead of shuffling it off at the other end of a transmission line helps more than people realize. Especially with so much of the nation's power coming from coal. As we get more co-generation plants on line, more wind, and (maybe?) more nuclear, then pure electrics look better in the overall scheme of things. But not for a while yet.



I agree that hybrids and electrics are not all they are cracked up to be. I didn’t intend to insinuate that they where more efficient. I was pointing out that for all of the refinements we have made to internal combustion engines; they still only turn a small percentage of the energy contained in a unit of fuel into mechanical energy.


And I agree. Im just pointing out that the laws of physics state that this will ALWAYS be true for a heat engine, and there's pretty much got to be a heat engine in there somewhere unless its 100% solar re-charged electric.

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071



I'm not a Toyota fan, but you can't help but notice their reliability. My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles and he doesn't even haul anything. At least Toyotas have somewhat decent quality and are assembled in the US and help keep American jobs. GM and Chrysler always advertise their "American roots" and then outsource all their stuff to China. Chevy runs deep I guess.

I almost never see a full-size truck of any brand not make 100,000 miles.

Even the worst of the Powerstroke 6.0s make 100,000 miles. (recent Power-have-a-stroke diseasel fail here was at 115,000 miles. Dealer charged $14,000 for it)

The current mileage champ of all my clients is a Canadian built 1991 Chevrolet C1500. 467,000 miles and going. TBI 350 flat tappet camshaft. The interior and switch gear are falling apart but the parts that Go, Stop, and Turn are still working.

Got a client with a 318 Dodge Ram that is about 100,000 behind him. Dash may actually look worse than the '91 C1500 with nearly 1/2 million miles. But it runs well.

Got another with a T-100 over 250,000 miles. A little wear on the driver's seat is the only way you would know that it is past 1/4 million.

Various Fords. One or more may be near the C1500 but you would never know because the analog odometers quit and a cold solder joint on the digital odometers from '99-'03 is bad so you can't see the mileage. Still run like a top.

Get clients that buy 2nd, 3rd, 4th....15th hand Tahoes from various lots. If the detailer does a good job, you would never know that it is a 150,000+ mile Tahoe/Yukon. I'm of the opinion that you have to really mess up to not get 100,000 out of a Tahoe.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
snip:



Stop with the selective hearing. YES GM partnered with china. TO BUILD CARS IN CHINA. FOR CHINESE CONSUMERS. In order to sell high volume of cars in china, a company must partner with a chinese company and build the vast majority of cars in china. Ford, Toyota, and VW have all done the SAME THING. You are just selectively applying it to GM to suit your bias.

And yes there are cars on the road that are built outside of the US/Canada, but not in CHINA. They won't pass our crash tests for one thing. Germany, France, UK, Mexico, Japan, sure. But not china. And again GM cars sold in the US are built with very limited exceptions in US/Canada.

Unless you are implying that they are lying on the VIN numbers and secretly importing cars from China and slapping a 1 or a 2 on the VIN. Oh and maybe GMBoy doesn't really work at a plant that is manufacturing Trucks, it's a FRONT and they are actually just building mock ups to LOOK like they are building cars in the US!

 

[wtd]

I guess you could say I'm a GM fan since it's all I own except a 72 Volkswagen Super beetle tha my grandfather gave me. I'm not going to say all of my GM vehicles have been problem free but generally they are easy to work on and parts are cheaper to buy than most of the others. My fiance and her family are all Ford people and while I like some things about the Fords, there are quite a few things that I don't like so I'm probably staying GM.

Wayne

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog


I almost never see a full-size truck of any brand not make 100,000 miles.

Even the worst of the Powerstroke 6.0s make 100,000 miles. (recent Power-have-a-stroke diseasel fail here was at 115,000 miles. Dealer charged $14,000 for it)

The current mileage champ of all my clients is a Canadian built 1991 Chevrolet C1500. 467,000 miles and going. TBI 350 flat tappet camshaft. The interior and switch gear are falling apart but the parts that Go, Stop, and Turn are still working.

Got a client with a 318 Dodge Ram that is about 100,000 behind him. Dash may actually look worse than the '91 C1500 with nearly 1/2 million miles. But it runs well.

Got another with a T-100 over 250,000 miles. A little wear on the driver's seat is the only way you would know that it is past 1/4 million.

Various Fords. One or more may be near the C1500 but you would never know because the analog odometers quit and a cold solder joint on the digital odometers from '99-'03 is bad so you can't see the mileage. Still run like a top.

Get clients that buy 2nd, 3rd, 4th....15th hand Tahoes from various lots. If the detailer does a good job, you would never know that it is a 150,000+ mile Tahoe/Yukon. I'm of the opinion that you have to really mess up to not get 100,000 out of a Tahoe.


I never said they don't make it to 100k miles. I said that they literally FALL APART. Each of his trucks still drove, but its the build quality which sucks. The interior plastics would crack, door panels get loose, electrical problems everywhere, etc. He currently has a 2005 Duramax. The thing has been in the shop 3 times because of the transmission going into limp mode. His headlights have been working intermittently and one side is brighter than the other. Only half of his blinkers work. His fuel gauge sending unit has been replaced twice and it still doesn't work. He has other electrical problems with the dashboard. The truck has about 60k miles and was owned by an older man. His previous Silverado was a nightmare and he owned it since new. My uncle bought a 2011 Silverado with the 4.3L and he had a rear main seal leak. The truck has about 9k miles on it, and he had to fight to get it fixed under warranty, even though he had all three of his oil changes done at the dealer.

I used to like GM and love the way some of their vehicles look, but their quality has tanked.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: [email protected]
Sounds like its time for a Tacoma test drive!


Worst vehicle I have ever owned. What a hunk of junk. 2005 Double Cab 4WD 4.0L SR5. Never again. For all the complaints people make about GM the company Toyota has to be the WORST car mfg I have ever had the sorry displeasure of having to deal with.

The Silverado is 10X's the truck a Tacoma is and gets similar MPG. I actually got better MPG out of the 05 Ext Cab 4WD 5.3L Silverado I replaced the Tacoma with than I got in the Tacoma.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071

My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles...


Had to jump in on this.

I'm going to call B.S. on that statement. Either you're lying or you do not know what a truck is. All of the big three pick-ups will last well over 100k, more like 300K+ miles. That goes for the F-series, the RAMs, and especially GM's Silverado & Sierra.

How do you expect to be taken seriously with statements like that?

EDIT: Didn't realize this guy already got hammered. Thanks everyone for calling out people on their nonsense.

 

[Racerjk]

I own the following GM products:

2008 Chevrolet HHR
1995 Pontiac Firebird Fomula
2009 Pontiac G8 GT
1964 Chevrolet C10

Before that I had several other GM products,and my parents have as well.

All of them have been almost extraordinarily reliable,and they look and perform great also. All of them were reasonably priced too. I see no reason to switch. If something has gone wrong with them it's usually pretty cheap and easy to fix them!

I see no reason to switch brands at all.

 

[Peted]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: [email protected]
Sounds like its time for a Tacoma test drive!


Worst vehicle I have ever owned. What a hunk of junk. 2005 Double Cab 4WD 4.0L SR5. Never again. For all the complaints people make about GM the company Toyota has to be the WORST car mfg I have ever had the sorry displeasure of having to deal with.

The Silverado is 10X's the truck a Tacoma is and gets similar MPG. I actually got better MPG out of the 05 Ext Cab 4WD 5.3L Silverado I replaced the Tacoma with than I got in the Tacoma.


I have always liked those Tacoma's. Good to know! Thanks for the input!

I really don't get all the hate on GM. In my sig you see a '09 Sierra 1500. The interior is great. It's rugged with just enough class.

Also enjoy the F-series. That was a nice truck as well, except for the spark-plug issue I had with the 5.4L Triton, what a nightmare $$$$.. The new RAM 1500 is another pick-up I considered heavily. They're all great choices.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071



I'm not a Toyota fan, but you can't help but notice their reliability. My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles and he doesn't even haul anything. At least Toyotas have somewhat decent quality and are assembled in the US and help keep American jobs. GM and Chrysler always advertise their "American roots" and then outsource all their stuff to China. Chevy runs deep I guess.

I almost never see a full-size truck of any brand not make 100,000 miles.

Even the worst of the Powerstroke 6.0s make 100,000 miles. (recent Power-have-a-stroke diseasel fail here was at 115,000 miles. Dealer charged $14,000 for it)

The current mileage champ of all my clients is a Canadian built 1991 Chevrolet C1500. 467,000 miles and going. TBI 350 flat tappet camshaft. The interior and switch gear are falling apart but the parts that Go, Stop, and Turn are still working.

Got a client with a 318 Dodge Ram that is about 100,000 behind him. Dash may actually look worse than the '91 C1500 with nearly 1/2 million miles. But it runs well.

Got another with a T-100 over 250,000 miles. A little wear on the driver's seat is the only way you would know that it is past 1/4 million.

Various Fords. One or more may be near the C1500 but you would never know because the analog odometers quit and a cold solder joint on the digital odometers from '99-'03 is bad so you can't see the mileage. Still run like a top.

Get clients that buy 2nd, 3rd, 4th....15th hand Tahoes from various lots. If the detailer does a good job, you would never know that it is a 150,000+ mile Tahoe/Yukon. I'm of the opinion that you have to really mess up to not get 100,000 out of a Tahoe.

This. All of my GM trucks have been rock solid. I spend a lot of time at camp sites talking to guys with all sorts of truck. They all last a good long time. How about a little history on your "friends" trucks and what you consider falling apart.

 

[sciphi]

GM's always made good powertrains. They figured out how to make a car have decent dynamics. Now their interiors are finally up to snuff in design, and most of the way there in materials and construction.

If you compare a $18k Fit and a $20k Cruze, the Fit is a Tupperware convention while the Cruze breaks up the plastic with some cloth. In terms of NVH, the Fit is fairly crude while the Cruze embarrasses more expensive cars. Ride really isn't comparable since the wheelbases and tires are different. Acceleration heavily favors the Cruze even though the Fit weighs 300 lbs less and is down 20 hp on paper, at 2700 lbs and 117 hp vs. 3000 lbs and 138 hp. The only areas the Fit whips the Cruze are cargo room and handling.

 

[dishdude]

I don't own any GM vehicles at the moment, but my family and I have owned more than our fair share, and I have worked at a number of companies that have had fleets of GM vehicles, and I gotta say I must have hit the GM lottery because I haven't experienced any first hand issues with any of the vehicles.

Were all of them the best of their class? No.

Did any have any major failures? No.

I think their current offerings are the best in my lifetime, and I am sure I'll own one in the future. I don't get the entire corporation bashing, considering the sheer size of the company and the number of vehicles built, sure there are more people that have been burned or have a story with a GM vehicle than any other.

In 1988, no Hyundai was better than the worst GM, and in 2013 no one remembers the Excel, but we still hear stories about the Vega, Chevette and Citation.

In the US, there is just something fashionable about buying a Non-American nameplate.

GM sold more vehicles in China (2.84M) than the US (2.59M) in 2012. Sad.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: Peted
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071

My friend only buys Chevy trucks. Every single one has fallen apart before 100k miles...


Had to jump in on this.

I'm going to call B.S. on that statement. Either you're lying or you do not know what a truck is. All of the big three pick-ups will last well over 100k, more like 300K+ miles. That goes for the F-series, the RAMs, and especially GM's Silverado & Sierra.

How do you expect to be taken seriously with statements like that?

EDIT: Didn't realize this guy already got hammered. Thanks everyone for calling out people on their nonsense.

Why would I lie about that? I don't have anything to prove to an internet forum. And I do know what a truck is.

I worked on a farm while in high school and those trucks that we used did more work than any truck on the road probably will ever do. Most people (like my buddy) don't even use trucks for real work. I never said the drivetrains failed and I'm not sure where you are getting that from. The trucks did still run and drive just fine, its all the electrical stuff and plastic cheap stuff that fell apart.

We used Ford F series trucks and GM 2500s on the farm. They were all great trucks. The GM 350 is a solid engine. Those trucks could be worked all day with no problems. I'm just saying that it seems to me you can't say the same for the newer ones. We had one '98 Sierra 2500 4x4 with 300k on it that had been worked hard. All of the electrical systems worked fine and the trans shifted flawless, even though my boss was not by any means a maintenance guy.

I did not intend to start an argument, my point was that brand loyalty is pointless. The brand doesn't care about you, and the products put out today are very different than the ones sold even a few years ago. I own a Jeep Cherokee and love it to death. It has been dead reliable. I can't say I would buy a new Jeep though, the quality isn't the same.

I know some people love their trucks to the point where the brand can do no wrong, but you can't think that way. It is very ignorant to do so. Each brand has their good and bad years. Even after all the problems my buddy has with his GM products, his dad is a Corvette fan and insists Chevy is the best truck manufacturer. He even told my other friend that his 2001 Ford Ranger (which is just shy of 200k) is a piece of junk and every Ford engineer is just someone who couldn't get hired at GM. I thought he was joking but he really believes it.

The bottom line is do your research. Buying a vehicle based solely on brand loyalty is probably one of the stupidest decisions you can make. These days researching before you buy is crucial.