C3 VS GF5

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Shannow
I'd find a C3/Dexos 2...there's plenty of those around.

Why has this correct answer fallen into the weeds?

 

[Garak]

It's not flashy enough, perhaps?

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by JAG
Most GF5 oils' HTHS will be from 3.0 to 3.2 cP while for C3 most will be 3.5 to 3.7 cP. So there is a viscosity consideration as well as an additive and base oil consideration. Knowing the engine and what oil specs. the manufacture requires would be very helpful in making the decision. Without knowing that and since you are in Australian climate, I would lean toward a C3 oil. Bonus points if it also meets VW 504/507 and MB 229.51 or 229.52.


Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 fits that bill nicely, as it has VW 504/507, plus both MB 229.51 and 229.52. It also happens to have both GF-5 and C3, as well as dexos2. I do prefer the older formula (called ESP Formula, instead of just ESP) because of it's lower sulfated ash (0.6 vs 0.8) and slightly higher HTHS (3.58 vs 3.5) so if you can still find that version around, grab it.

 

[ChemLabNL]

Originally Posted by edyvw
There are olive oils that meet API SN+.


Why has this correct answer fallen into the weeds?

 

[ChemLabNL]

Dexos2 0w40 is an excellent universal oil for North America.
Nobody even speaks of the god-king of dexos - ACDelco Dexos2 5w30.

 

[jbutch]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by JAG
Most GF5 oils' HTHS will be from 3.0 to 3.2 cP while for C3 most will be 3.5 to 3.7 cP. So there is a viscosity consideration as well as an additive and base oil consideration. Knowing the engine and what oil specs. the manufacture requires would be very helpful in making the decision. Without knowing that and since you are in Australian climate, I would lean toward a C3 oil. Bonus points if it also meets VW 504/507 and MB 229.51 or 229.52.


Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 fits that bill nicely, as it has VW 504/507, plus both MB 229.51 and 229.52. It also happens to have both GF-5 and C3, as well as dexos2. I do prefer the older formula (called ESP Formula, instead of just ESP) because of it's lower sulfated ash (0.6 vs 0.8) and slightly higher HTHS (3.58 vs 3.5) so if you can still find that version around, grab it.



I did not know a GF5 5w-30 could have an HTHS as high as 3.5.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Well, there are a lot of different TGDIs out there.
My car was recalled for LSPI, despite a lot of members here saying that LSPI doesn't exist, so I take it as an issue of concern at least on par with whether my oil's HTHS is 3ish or 3.5ish.
Unfortunately, neither C3 nor GF5 include any kind of LSPI testing...makes sense as they are older standards.
GF6 is going to include an LSPI test in an EcoBoost, but this standard has been delayed for years and years.
ACEA C6 and A7/B7 with LSPI tests are supposedly in the pipeline, but the former is a follow on to C5, not C3.
The dexos2 standard that was also mentioned will add an LSPI test at some point, but who knows when?

There are plenty of d1G2 5W30s out there that have been LSPI tested, but they will have 3ish HTHS viscosities.
If one is of the mind that a turbo calls for a higher HTHS, there are some SN+ XW30 oils that have passed LSPI testing that can fit that bill...like the M1 HM I am running now.
Unfortunately a 10W, so it's not a year round oil for me...it hit -29F at my ski condo a couple of seasons ago and I don't want to have to worry about starting my car at 7am following a night like that.
I don't care that someone's granpa used SAE30 in Thule and was just fine...

If one only looks at C3 and GF5 with a TGDI, I guess I would say keep your revs up and avoid the Low Speed in LSPI!!

I'm sure there will a barrage of posts about LSPI being a figment of the oil industry's imagination.
I will respond in advance that I think engine wear is imaginary as I have never had an engine wear out!
;^)
Something else breaks first, or I just get sick of the car the engine sits in...

 

[jbutch]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Well, there are a lot of different TGDIs out there.
My car was recalled for LSPI, despite a lot of members here saying that LSPI doesn't exist, so I take it as an issue of concern at least on par with whether my oil's HTHS is 3ish or 3.5ish.
Unfortunately, neither C3 nor GF5 include any kind of LSPI testing...makes sense as they are older standards.
GF6 is going to include an LSPI test in an EcoBoost, but this standard has been delayed for years and years.
ACEA C6 and A7/B7 with LSPI tests are supposedly in the pipeline, but the former is a follow on to C5, not C3.
The dexos2 standard that was also mentioned will add an LSPI test at some point, but who knows when?

There are plenty of d1G2 5W30s out there that have been LSPI tested, but they will have 3ish HTHS viscosities.
If one is of the mind that a turbo calls for a higher HTHS, there are some SN+ XW30 oils that have passed LSPI testing that can fit that bill...like the M1 HM I am running now.
Unfortunately a 10W, so it's not a year round oil for me...it hit -29F at my ski condo a couple of seasons ago and I don't want to have to worry about starting my car at 7am following a night like that.
I don't care that someone's granpa used SAE30 in Thule and was just fine...

If one only looks at C3 and GF5 with a TGDI, I guess I would say keep your revs up and avoid the Low Speed in LSPI!!

I'm sure there will a barrage of posts about LSPI being a figment of the oil industry's imagination.
I will respond in advance that I think engine wear is imaginary as I have never had an engine wear out!
;^)
Something else breaks first, or I just get sick of the car the engine sits in...


That's why I went with Rotella MV 5w-30, it has at least a HTHS of 3.5 (Being an E6 oil) and has been confirmed a short time ago to be SN+.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by jbutch

That's why I went with Rotella MV 5w-30, it has at least a HTHS of 3.5 (Being an E6 oil) and has been confirmed a short time ago to be SN+.

I think that's a great choice...but now I feel really dumb as I have no idea what E6 is!!
;^)
Super cool that it is confirmed as SN+ now.
I understand from some posts here that it is easier to find in Canada than in the US, although I'm sure I could buy it online without paying a crazy amount of money.
I have pretty much stuck to oils I can buy at WM, though, excepting some liters of M1 5W30 ESP Formula and a failed purchase of Ravenol DXG d1G2 (the old stuff was shipped).

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted by jbutch
I did not know a GF5 5w-30 could have an HTHS as high as 3.5.


So long as it passes the Sequence VID fuel economy test requirements it can be whatever it wants (within the bounds of SAE J300, meaning 2.9 cP minimum).

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by jbutch
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by JAG
Most GF5 oils' HTHS will be from 3.0 to 3.2 cP while for C3 most will be 3.5 to 3.7 cP. So there is a viscosity consideration as well as an additive and base oil consideration. Knowing the engine and what oil specs. the manufacture requires would be very helpful in making the decision. Without knowing that and since you are in Australian climate, I would lean toward a C3 oil. Bonus points if it also meets VW 504/507 and MB 229.51 or 229.52.


Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 fits that bill nicely, as it has VW 504/507, plus both MB 229.51 and 229.52. It also happens to have both GF-5 and C3, as well as dexos2. I do prefer the older formula (called ESP Formula, instead of just ESP) because of it's lower sulfated ash (0.6 vs 0.8) and slightly higher HTHS (3.58 vs 3.5) so if you can still find that version around, grab it.



I did not know a GF5 5w-30 could have an HTHS as high as 3.5.

Yes. The previous ESP version was both C2 and C3.

 

[yowps3]

An oil to potentially reduce IVD would be far more beneficial for Tgdi than oil to prevent a very rare occuring episode of LSPI that isn't even linked directly to oil.

 

[jbutch]

Originally Posted by Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted by jbutch

That's why I went with Rotella MV 5w-30, it has at least a HTHS of 3.5 (Being an E6 oil) and has been confirmed a short time ago to be SN+.

I think that's a great choice...but now I feel really dumb as I have no idea what E6 is!!
;^)
Super cool that it is confirmed as SN+ now.
I understand from some posts here that it is easier to find in Canada than in the US, although I'm sure I could buy it online without paying a crazy amount of money.
I have pretty much stuck to oils I can buy at WM, though, excepting some liters of M1 5W30 ESP Formula and a failed purchase of Ravenol DXG d1G2 (the old stuff was shipped).


The E class of ACEA is the HDEO.

E6 is Low-SAPS long drain interval

ACEA E6 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing excellent control of piston cleanliness, wear, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, Euro V and Euro VI emission requirements and running under very severe conditions, e.g. significantly extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer's recommendations. It is suitable for EGR engines, with or without particulate filters, and for engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. E6 quality is strongly recommended for engines fitted with particulate filters and is designed for use in combination with low sulphur diesel fuel. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so Driver Manuals and/or Dealers shall be consulted if in doubt.


In the US I think you can get it by getting it Shipped to stores at Walmart.

M1 ESP 5w-30 is the other option I was very interested in, however it is very expensive in Canada as they only come in liters @ 17$ per liter for a whooping 97$ with taxes, whereas the Rotella MV 5 liters jug is 50$ with taxes and MIR.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by yowps3
An oil to potentially reduce IVD would be far more beneficial for Tgdi than oil to prevent a very rare occuring episode of LSPI that isn't even linked directly to oil.

Low-SAPS oils will reduce CBU.

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by jbutch



M1 ESP 5w-30 is the other option I was very interested in, however it is very expensive in Canada as they only come in liters @ 17$ per liter for a whooping 97$ with taxes, whereas the Rotella MV 5 liters jug is 50$ with taxes and MIR.



The new formula of M1 ESP 5w30 is now $16.29 at Canadian Tire and comes in 1 quart bottles instead of liters like the old formula. It's still very expensive but if you have their Triangle points card you can often get deals where you get 25 or 50x the bonus points. Right now my weekly offer has the 50x bonus points attached to any oil purchase. So if I were to buy 6 quarts of ESP 5w30 I'd get back about $20 to $25 in CT money, so that makes the price a little bit easier to swallow if you time the purchases that way.

I'm worried that CT will stop carrying this oil eventually though, as I'm not sure who is buying it other than me! I bet most people look at it and wonder why they should pay $16 a liter when they can get 5 quarts of vanilla M1 5w30 for $30 when it goes on sale once a month.

 

[jbutch]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by jbutch



M1 ESP 5w-30 is the other option I was very interested in, however it is very expensive in Canada as they only come in liters @ 17$ per liter for a whooping 97$ with taxes, whereas the Rotella MV 5 liters jug is 50$ with taxes and MIR.



The new formula of M1 ESP 5w30 is now $16.29 at Canadian Tire and comes in 1 quart bottles instead of liters like the old formula. It's still very expensive but if you have their Triangle points card you can often get deals where you get 25 or 50x the bonus points. Right now my weekly offer has the 50x bonus points attached to any oil purchase. So if I were to buy 6 quarts of ESP 5w30 I'd get back about $20 to $25 in CT money, so that makes the price a little bit easier to swallow if you time the purchases that way.

I'm worried that CT will stop carrying this oil eventually though, as I'm not sure who is buying it other than me! I bet most people look at it and wonder why they should pay $16 a liter when they can get 5 quarts of vanilla M1 5w30 for $30 when it goes on sale once a month.



I just checked and they have a store clearance at my local CT, the old ESP Formula @ 9.91 $ per liter. they have 11 of them in stock.

But I already have wayyyyy to much oil in my stash......

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by jbutch



I just checked and they have a store clearance at my local CT, the old ESP Formula @ 9.91 $ per liter. they have 11 of them in stock.

But I already have wayyyyy to much oil in my stash......

Chances are good that they don't have any more in stock anyways. You wouldn't believe how many Canadian Tires I have been to in the past six months that said they had lots of ESP Formula in stock only to get there and find out they have none left (or they have one bottle when the online checker said they had 15) I have 29L in my stash though, so that'll keep the Corvette happy for the next 5 years

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted by yowps3

Recomended is ACEA A5
However, I cannot find any SN rated A5 oil here.. they're all SL with high amounts of ZDDP


In Australia you can get full synthetic Castrol Magnatec Stop Start 5W-30 A5 which is ACEA A5/B5 and API SN/CF. I've seen it at SCA, their web description is all over the place, but check out the Castrol website.

You can also get Castrol Edge which is ACEA A5/B5, API SN/CF, ILSAC GF-5. This is a great oil, and I'm using it right now. The 10W winter rating is good down to -20C, which should be fine for all of Australia even in winter (unless you are based at the Antarctic research station).

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted by SR5
You can also get Castrol Edge which is ACEA A5/B5, API SN/CF, ILSAC GF-5. This is a great oil, and I'm using it right now. The 10W winter rating is good down to -20C, which should be fine for all of Australia even in winter (unless you are based at the Antarctic research station).


Sorry, that's Castrol Edge 10W30 that is ACEA A5/B5 and API SN. (HTHS = 3.2 cP)


The Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4 is ACEA A3/B4 and API SL (due to high ZDDP, but it passes SN quality tests according to Castrol). It also carries the OEMs of MB 229.5 and BMW LL-01, which are very good. (HTHS = 3.6 cP)

Many of the A5/B5 oils in Australia also carry Ford M2C913-D spec., which is an excellent global Ford spec (outside North America). It requires a full synthetic A5/B5 oil, at the thin end of the 5W30 viscosity grade for fuel economy, but with boosted TBN (8 up to 10) for long oil life and with extra ZDDP (~ 1000 ppm Zinc) for extra cam chain wear protection. Lots of Ford's ( e.g. Mustang 5.0L V8) and Jag's run 913-D oil around the globe with no problem.

ZDDP is an excellent add that acts as an anti-oxidant to protect the oil and a anti-wear agent to protect the metal. The 1000 ppm level is common in many Euro A3/B4 oils and if you car isn't a major oil burner then this level should still allow long exhaust cat life. ZDDP also quenches LSPI events in modern TGDI engines.

Both Penrite and Valvoline make full synthetic 5W30 A5/B5 oils with 913-D (and API SL) that I would happily use in most modern cars, warranty permitting.

Otherwise an API SN, Dexos2 5w30 is another good choice. Like Caltex Havoline ProDS 5W30 which is SN, ACEA C3, BMW LL-04, Dexos2, MB 229.51 and VW 502/505. This has a TBN of 8.1 and 900 ppm zinc (right at the upper limit), with a HTHS >= 3.5 cP.