Bypass filters vs. using the best modern oils

[msjanket]

I met a very knowledgeable oil salesperson who ran a Camry 425k without using a bypass filter. He's a petroleum engineer by training and felt a bypass filter was overkill. Does his getting huge mileage out of his car disprove the value of a bypass filter, or are there other benefits to using a bypass over and above miles accrued on an engine?

Mike

 

[Ugly3]

One example does not prove or disprove anything. My opinion is that with good maintance an engine with a full flow filter will last longer than you want to keep it. If you add a bypass filter system you may be able to go 40% longer. Overkill? Yes. But to each his own.

 

[TooSlick]

1) Reduced maintenance and less waste materials, ie used oil and oil filters.

2) Better average fuel efficiency with super clean oil (lower Cf), and a more stable oil viscosity over long drain intervals....

TS

 

[mjo]

Mike, the statement doesn't prove anything. With an infinite supply of repair parts you can keep your car forever as long as you have a mechanic who can repair it. Using a bypass filter and regular maintenance, a longer time passes before a repair is needed for the engine because less wear occurs.

Also, I think if this guy used a TP or PT filter throughout the life of his car he could have saved a ton of money from synthetic oil costs due to many less oil changes needed.

 

[msjanket]

mjo's comments proves nothing, either, just hot air. Ugly3 says you "may go 40% longer with a bypass filter". All unsupported baloney, guys, my statements are insignificant but yours are not? Just whom are we kidding, guys? Give me something to go on, not just your suppositions, guesses, surmises, and the like.

Mike

 

[Mykro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by msjanket:
mjo's comments proves nothing, either, just hot air. Ugly3 says you "may go 40% longer with a bypass filter". All unsupported baloney, guys, my statements are insignificant but yours are not? Just whom are we kidding, guys? Give me something to go on, not just your suppositions, guesses, surmises, and the like.

Mike

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How often did he change the oil?? If one changes the oil often in their engine then that engine will have the longevity that goes with frequent oil changes along with the added cost of changing that oil.. With a bypass filter the point is not to let the oil get contaminated.. Why does oil get dirty to begin with?? Answer that one.. Maybe because the stock filters don't filter very well??...
It's about having clean oil 100% of the time all the time.. Never let your oils/Fluids get dirty in the first place.. That is the proper way to correct maintainence. To change your oil every 3,000 miles is only a guideline not some scientific fact, Nothing more than marketing genius...

 

[Steve S]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
1) Reduced maintenance and less waste materials, ie used oil and oil filters.

2) Better average fuel efficiency with super clean oil (lower Cf), and a more stable oil viscosity over long drain intervals....

TS

---

Can,t argure the facts T.S. but are they worth it? I will bring up waste though. The used oil is recycled as well as the filters, so what is the difference? a bypass still generates waste toilet paper or a bf 90 plus as recommended by amsoil for example, a full flow change x amount of miles ... I would like to put it this way, a bypass setup is the best way to extend the oil change interval no matter which oil is used.

 

[RJCorazza]

I saved crawling under my vehicles and doing 14 oil changes over the last 12 months. That would have been about 60 quarts of oil, whereas I actually used only about 25 quarts doing bypass filter changes. So far I have 2 UOA's(exceptional) to support continuing, and will be doing several more that will include particle anaylsis. All facts.

 

[RalphPWood]

It's the same old story. An OIL salesman telling people that if you change the oil often enough you don't need a bypass filter. I just got a note and a check from a guy in Fallon Nevada that read "Thank you for sending me the gaskets for the Motor Guard. I have had it since 1969 on a 1954 IHC K 110 and it is still running strong." It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this guy takes care of his equipment. I put a Frantz oil cleaner on a 79 Toyota Corolla with almost 100,000 miles on it. I also put a Frantz oil cleaner on my new 84 Subaru. About 15 years later the Corolla had over 500,000 miles on it and the Subaru had almost 200,000 miles on it. He uses Pennsoil conventional and I was using Mobil 1. What does that tell me? Not much.
One guy on a forum mentioned that "Ralph sells bypass filters so I figured he was biased. I went to an oil change place and asked them."

I got some information on bypass filters from Fleetguard that is probably the largest maker of bypass filters in the world.
TITLE: Bypass Filtration Reduces Wear
Percent wear with full flow as a baseline Full flow only and Full flow with bypass. 30% less wear on upper Conn Rod bearing shell. 63% less wear lower Conn rod bearing shell. 49% less wear upper main bearing shell, 64% less wear lower main bearing shell.
These tests are done on heavy duty diesel engines. Why would it be any different for our small engines? It's the same. They use shredded newspapers packed into a steel cartridge and I use toilet paper. I installed a filter on a Powerstroke belonging to a petroleum engineer. He had all kinds of charts and graphs that he showed me teling me how much the filters save him.
I'm not very smart but I know that clean oil 100% of the time is better than allowing the oil to get dirty, wear and foul the engine then draining it.

Ralph

 

[Gary Allan]

msjanket The "worth it" aspect has to be properly indexed. For the typical new car owner/consumer ...no. They aren't worth it. They trade their cars in often enough ..and even if they didn't they will probably get 150k of 100% utiility out of the engine ..maybe more.

It mainly depends on what you view a car as. Is it some personality extension of fashion statement that may change with what's en vogue? If so ..then bypass filtration isn't for you. If you consider them a utility that represents a substantial amount of $$$ ..then you might be well served with the notion that you've eliminated one of the decay elements that attack your engine or trans.

 

[Steve S]

Lets see ,my 92 Toyota p/u has 112,567 miles, as today I changed my oil, I do 2 oil changes per year ,I don't think a bypass will benefit me. I n 15 years I may have 250,000 miles I'm sure my engine will still be running .I'm really not into cars ,but by then I may purchase a new car.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
this has been well discussed before. There is no doubt IMHE that using the best oils at the precribed OCIs is more cost effective for Mr Average than installing a by-pass filter. Taking into account the vehicle ownership cycle of most individuals of course!

In my case fitting MANN-HUMMEL Spinner 2 centrifuge seperators to my heavy diesel engines (12.7ltr 500hp) only became COST EFFECTIVE after about 750kkms(466k miles) when using one of the best synthetic oils available. And even then, the attraction was being able to remove at sale and re-install on new engines

Ralph - you said:
"I'm not very smart but I know that clean oil 100% of the time is better than allowing the oil to get dirty, wear and foul the engine then draining it."

I have great difficulty with this comment as after the experience of 100s of UOAs in various engines both with/without by-pass filters and centrifuge separators I can gaurantee you will not have "...clean oil 100% of the time..." as you indicate.

And using UOAs to establish a meaningful OCI will prevent "...allowing the oil to get dirty, wear and foul the engine..." as Ralph has indicated

They (bypass filters and centrifuge separators) do have an ultimate application. They do perform well in Agriculture, Marine, Earthmoving, Trucking and Industrial applications but only where a cost effective study flashes a green light! Highly utilised cars and light trucks may be a cost effective application too - the sums just need to be done first!

Garry Allan'c comments are IMHO right "on the button"!

In the end if you want to "play", spend the money of course and be happy!

Regards
Doug

 

[RJCorazza]

All true... there is certainly a "play" factor for me, as well as the feel-good. My real benefit is the time savings. From a practical standpoint, my wife's van is driven 25k per year and the bypass filter will certainly pay for itself before the vehicle's demise - then I'll move it to the next vehicle. My diesel tractor sees heavy use, and I plan on keeping it forever - so the bypass filter IMHO will extend its service life.

 

[acewiza]

OK, let's see the numbers. We'll assume you bought the Toyota new and have changed the oil twice a year since then. We will also assume your oil change cost to be a conservative $8 a pop, using the cheapest available oil and filters and doing it yourself:

Oil change cost until today = $104 (13 X 8)

Oil chg cost til 2020 (15yr)= $120 (15 X 8)

Total oil change cost over 28yr = $224

It cost me about $65 to install a Motorguard, making some of my own conversion parts. I don't expect to use more than one quart of oil per year hereafter, on an extended OCI(TBD).

Your cost may be substanially more depending on the oil and filters you buy.

We are also not taking into consideration the time spent crawling around under the car twice a year. Maybe reduce that to about once every two or three years or even less depending on new OCI (if any!), with a bypass setup.

Then consider the condition of the engine if and when you decide to get rid of it. Maybe it is just the difference between sending it to the boneyard or getting a few bucks out of it from some kid, but still...

 

[acewiza]

Doug, I am wondering how you can assert that "using the best oils at the precribed OCIs is more cost effective for Mr Average than installing a by-pass filter."??

How is buying 10 or 12 quarts of oil per year more cost effective than buying 1 or 2 quarts of oil per year?

I guess I just don't understand...

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
acewiza - it is important to read the heading of this thread and the first post!

The guts of what I said is in the words;

"best oils" - this means the latest oil prescribed for the engine or better

"prescribed OCIs" - means those OCIs recommended
by the vehicle Manufacturer

"cost effective" - means a TRUE cost per km comparison over the Mr Average ownership/use matrix

"Mr Average" - means the average person who covers about 12-15kkms per year and retains the vehicle for an average period (4 to 5 years)

I also said:
"Highly utilised cars and light trucks may be a cost effective application too - the sums just need to be done first!

A bypass filter will only show any real evidence of extended component life over an extended distance covered. IF AT ALL!. Most engines will cover 200kkms without being seriously touched today - many reach 400kkms+ on mineral oils changed as recommended!!!

Euro vehicles are already being sold with OCIs out to 30kkms and two years - using the best oils is mandatory of course

My experience (NOT Mr Average) is that the best oils will easily go out to 20kkms in most applications even if it is covered over 18mths or two years. Most UOAs confirm this!

Oh - the best oils cost around $A20 per litre here and for example 5ltr packs of Castrol Formula "R" 0w-40 are around $60 (exch rate $A1 = $US0.75)

I also said;
"In the end if you want to "play", spend the money of course and be happy!"

Regards
Doug

 

[Gary Allan]

What Doug wants to point out is that there is an initial cost of the unit ..the plumbing and whatnot. Plug that back into the oil you would use over the OCI's that you would use it and see how many years you would be able to change your oil and filters. At about $100-$200 (depending on what unit you buy) you're looking at 3m/3k with cheap dino and a $3 filter ..for about $32/year ..so before you gain a dime, you're into your 4th year ..or as high as your 8th year.

Now don't get me wrong. Bypass filtration is a great thing. If I had it on my 92 Caravan for the past 170k miles ...I may not have had the slight ridge in my cylinder walls that I have now....but you will note that I have 170k on it ...and that this vehicle, in the typical ownership, would be on its second or third owner ..or in the junkyard. Who would have benefitted from me installing a bypass in the "normal" scenario??? The second and third owners ..or the guy who pulled the engine out in the junkyard

By all means DO IT ..if it feels good. There are plenty on this board who change very expensive, top shelf, synthetics every 6 months regardless of mileage. There's no justification for in in $$ and cents ..yet they do it anyway

Commercial vehicles have an advantage ..they accumulate mileage very quickly. You too can make your engine last at par with them ...and bypass filtration can surely be a major contributor to that goal. But one must look at the "vectors" that intersect with a common passenger car ..even if exceptional care is taken of it. It may have some other system take a crap ..it may be in an accident and be uninsured ...or declared a total loss. It may rust away. Parts my not be available for it by the time you reach 400,000 miles or may be very expensive. They aren't meant to last that long in service ..and we already exceed the need. Your seats may rot away and replacing them may exceed the value of the car

But no one said it wasn't wise or fun to use bypass filtration. It's just that you're aiming at a target that is way out there and there is lots of intermediate terrain ...loaded with uncertainty. I would do it out of "policy" ..or out of "interest" or out of "desire" ...but I would probably be hard pressed to do it for any other reason.

 

[Steve S]

Very good post Gary.

 

[trynew]

What if all the world's auto manufacturers immediately began equiping all their vehicles with TP bypass filters? What effect would it have?

My guesses: Used vehicle prices generally would go up as people became more confident in the engines' condition in a used vehicle. There would be fewer of the "sludge monsters" that I read about in these forums. The seals in the engine would be tighter because of the clean oil is not as tough on seals as the oil with the nasty contaminants that collect in used oil. So, garage floors would be cleaner. Oil changes would become cheaper because it *usually* would only involve replacing the TP roll and adding a quart of oil. No hoist. The TP roll could be burned for fuel, since there is no metal can. Gas mileage might be slightly higher because clean oil has a lower coefficent of friction than dirty oil.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
we do get lost sometimes on BITOG
All bypass filters are not TP roll driven. Many have a full cartridge, many have special internals including heaters and some are centrifuge seperators and etc

By pass filters are mandatory on some Euro heavy diesels to enable factory endorsed extended drains when using Approved lubricants. Some US diesels come equipped with a bypass filter in tandem with a FF filter (or two). Some are banned from being fitted when under Warranty

From a users viewpoint many servicing points do not know how to change the "element" or simply won't. Some won't even clean a centrifuge out. Some engine makers frown on fitting bypass filters at the expense of oil flow at any point

There is no simple answer - and bypass filters are NOT the key to long engine life. They are but a tool to servicing - some are successful at their task and some not

Regards
Doug