Hi,
it may be worth reading the thread "Diesel Oils for 2007" under "Interesting Articles"
Regards
Doug
it may be worth reading the thread "Diesel Oils for 2007" under "Interesting Articles"
Regards
Doug
Bypass filters vs. using the best modern oils
- Thread starter msjanket
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OK Doug I did read the subject and here is the big advantage vs. Best modern oils (EXPENSIVE!):
LOWER COST OF VEHICLE OWNERSHIP. Using the "best oils" will put the ROI within 1 or two years for a high-mileage vehicle.
Just so were are not mixing apples and oranges here (various shall we say, less-than-economical filter setups). I am talking about putting a Motorguard on a passenger vehicle. The guy has a Camry. You are the one who started talking about all your experience with heavy diesel engines.
Maybe you should go back and re-read the thread?
LOWER COST OF VEHICLE OWNERSHIP. Using the "best oils" will put the ROI within 1 or two years for a high-mileage vehicle.
Just so were are not mixing apples and oranges here (various shall we say, less-than-economical filter setups). I am talking about putting a Motorguard on a passenger vehicle. The guy has a Camry. You are the one who started talking about all your experience with heavy diesel engines.
Maybe you should go back and re-read the thread?
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The guy will have superbly clean oil and about 4 tp changes a year. So for as low as about $6 he'll have his oil situation well in hand for as long as he owns it (natually UOA would be recommended at some point to assure proper maintenance).
Is he going to keep the car for 20 years ...or 4?
Is he going to keep the car for 20 years ...or 4?
You can be sure that if a bypass filter can't keep old Ralphs oil clean 100% of the time it won't be on old Ralph's engine. I don't care what the factory endorses. I don't care what the crowd does. When I was a kid working in a gas station trying to sell oil changes, tires and such I pulled the dip stick on an old Cadillac. In those days you could tell when someone had just changed the oil because the oil would be clear. I said I see you have just changed the oil. He said yes about 100,000 miles ago. He pointed to his Frantz oil cleaner and said son if you had one of these and Chevron Delo 100 your engine wouldn't wear out and you wouldn't have to drain the oil. I put a Frantz on the Rambler and the oil turned clear. I signed up as a dealer soon after that. I thought everyone would want one. I soon found that I had to talk to about 1000 people to find one that could understand proper filtration. If was "Son if those were any good they would be on all the new car." "Son, oil is suspossed to get dirty it means its doing its job". One major oil company was trying to put Frantz out of business because they were a threat to the oil change business.
When Motor Guard Corporation came out in 1966 I liked the design. They managed to stay in business by cnverting to compressed air filters. As strange as it seems we did fine when synthetic oils were hard to find. I had a list of oils to use 40 years ago. Shell Rotella and Delo 100 were on the list. Delo was easy to find for about 29 cents in the discount stores.
I was looking at a Motor Guard compressed air filter at work and thought I can convert the M-30 back to lube oil. It's not that different than the old M-100. It is beefed up and has an epoxy coating. The ports are 1/4" instead of 1/8".
After 43 years of using TP filters I can say that rumors and BS stories come with TP filters. Thats why these days you have some filter companies hiding TP in socks and cartridges. Cellulose is the best oil filter.
I saw a series 60 Detroit with the hone marks still in the liners at over 1 million miles using Shell Rotella non synthetic. It had 2 oil drains with a Gulf Coast paper towel filter. Keeping the oil clean 100% of the time is what does it. Shell might say it the oil
Shell isn't intimidated by bypass filters. The break in oil was drained and at about 250,000 miles the oil was drained to replace an oil pan gasket under warranty.
Ralph
When Motor Guard Corporation came out in 1966 I liked the design. They managed to stay in business by cnverting to compressed air filters. As strange as it seems we did fine when synthetic oils were hard to find. I had a list of oils to use 40 years ago. Shell Rotella and Delo 100 were on the list. Delo was easy to find for about 29 cents in the discount stores.
I was looking at a Motor Guard compressed air filter at work and thought I can convert the M-30 back to lube oil. It's not that different than the old M-100. It is beefed up and has an epoxy coating. The ports are 1/4" instead of 1/8".
After 43 years of using TP filters I can say that rumors and BS stories come with TP filters. Thats why these days you have some filter companies hiding TP in socks and cartridges. Cellulose is the best oil filter.
I saw a series 60 Detroit with the hone marks still in the liners at over 1 million miles using Shell Rotella non synthetic. It had 2 oil drains with a Gulf Coast paper towel filter. Keeping the oil clean 100% of the time is what does it. Shell might say it the oil
Ralph
There is no simple answer - and bypass filters are NOT the key to long engine life. They are but a tool to servicing - some are successful at their task and some not
I'm not sure what your past experience is, with bypass filters, but in my opinion, they ARE the key to long engine life. I have worked as a diesel mechanic since 1980, and I've seen the insides of those big engines, and you can soon tell if the oil has been kept clean. I now sell a bypass filter and from a user in TN comes information about an engine they had apart, at 750,000 miles. The head gasket was leaking coolant into the crank-case, and of course when they took the head off, they applied conventional thinking, and decided to go all the way, with an in-frame major. When finished, the mechanic remarked that he had never seen such a waste of time and parts. So........I would conclude that bypass filters DO pay for themselves, and then some. BTW their normal ODI was annually, or 100,000 miles, whichever came first. And yes, they did UOA.
I'm not sure what your past experience is, with bypass filters, but in my opinion, they ARE the key to long engine life. I have worked as a diesel mechanic since 1980, and I've seen the insides of those big engines, and you can soon tell if the oil has been kept clean. I now sell a bypass filter and from a user in TN comes information about an engine they had apart, at 750,000 miles. The head gasket was leaking coolant into the crank-case, and of course when they took the head off, they applied conventional thinking, and decided to go all the way, with an in-frame major. When finished, the mechanic remarked that he had never seen such a waste of time and parts. So........I would conclude that bypass filters DO pay for themselves, and then some. BTW their normal ODI was annually, or 100,000 miles, whichever came first. And yes, they did UOA.
Filters are simple for me. There are submicronic filters and non submicronic filters. There are economical filters and non economical filters. There are high quality housings that don't leak and are easy to service and there are the ones that are low quality or leak. I have studied most of the most popular ones.
The problem is determining which of the oils are the best modern oils. It has been my experience over the last over 40 years that the best oil is clean oil. Back when I started using bypass filters multi grade oils were not much good for extended drains. I used single grade oils. I gave up the system of allowing the oil to get dirty then draining it in 1963. I have never regretted that choice.
Ralph
The problem is determining which of the oils are the best modern oils. It has been my experience over the last over 40 years that the best oil is clean oil. Back when I started using bypass filters multi grade oils were not much good for extended drains. I used single grade oils. I gave up the system of allowing the oil to get dirty then draining it in 1963. I have never regretted that choice.
Ralph
My understanding, based on websearch, is that with Bypass filters and on-line additives, you are going to double or triple the intervals between Oil / Filter changes. This is especially for the trucking sector where 'engine gas recirculation' for the diesel engines is becoming more common.
I guess it is difficult to fight with the fact that keeping oils cleaner (than otherwise), keeps your engines healthier.
Everyones got to do his own calc on the initial cost (and some repeated) Vs savings on oil/filter/better-kept-engine.
I guess it is difficult to fight with the fact that keeping oils cleaner (than otherwise), keeps your engines healthier.
Everyones got to do his own calc on the initial cost (and some repeated) Vs savings on oil/filter/better-kept-engine.
You forget one thing about TP oil filters. When you change the TP, you can look at the end of the roll and see what it's been picking up. You don't need a pipe cutter or a hacksaw to get to the elememt. It's like a uoa for free and it's in color, too. Sometimes things that show up can predict the future of you engine. If fact, if this forum wants to help people, there might be some person out there that could post some end of the roll pictures so we can all share in the excitement of reading rolls of TP. There's no end to the thrills we could have, looking at the precusor to a bearing melt down, or a leaky head gasket or the beginnings of a sludge monster. There's peace of mind knowing that you've had a good TP reading on the end of your roll. And if it's bad, you can do something before the problems gets serious, like putting up a 'For Sale' sign.
Great point LarryL
By-pass filters are fine & have their place. I simply preffer large spin on filters w/ filter magnets & a pre-oiler as another way to care for my engine. From what I've read, most engine wear occurs during start up. If this is true, then a pre-oiler does a better job of protecting the engine during this period than does any filter. An advantage of a by-pass filter is the removal of moisture. Moisture is the main reason that even high mileage OCI's shouldn't exceed every six months or so if not using a filtration method or other means capable of removing moisture. Am very happy with the success of my set-up & changing oil every 5 to 6k or every 6 months, whichever comes first. I also mix a maintenance does of AutoRx to my oil which increases the cost. Peace of mind is what it's really about. How much does that cost?IMHO.
What is a TP filter? What is a PT filter?
TP--toilet paper
PT--paper towel
PT--paper towel
The answer is going to be an engineered solution, not just picking odd pieces. Maybe a system that has elements that work together. How about a larger, cleanable (remember the environment) full flow filter, and a bypass filter that is calibrated to work with the full flow filter. You could go, maybe two years, clean the full flow filter and change the element in the bypass, add a couple of quarts of oil and don't change the synthetic oil. Also the bypass filter could dispense an additive as a time release over the two years from a capsule in the bypass filter that that is replaced at service time. And the bypass filter is larger than the usual filter and helps to maintain the oil level in the engine incase there is any oil burnoff over the years. No one though tuneups would go a year or more, so maybe oil service could go to two years.
"I soon found that I had to talk to about 1000 people to find one that could understand proper filtration."
Amen, amen.
There should be one rolling up any day now
Amen, amen.
There should be one rolling up any day now
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I'm pretty sure that the term "start up" is misused or misunderstood nomenclature. Start up can be defined as up to 20 minutes of operation. This is opposed to "steady state" operation. Now the wear is probably not linear ..but just about all wear is unavoidable if you have an engine that operates most of its time before being fully warmed up. This doesn't mean the coolant. That will aid in keeping combustion byproducts to a minimum ..but there's uneven wear from pistons and other items that aren't fully expanded for about 13-17 miles (or about 20 minutes of operation).
I must credit this information to our resident doctor ..Aehaas (Dr. A. E. Haas) who graciously shared with us parts of SAE papers ..especially the works of, the now infamous, Schnieder. He drew different conclusions from the data ..but the data clearly shows that cylinder wall and ring wear continue until the engine reaches thermal saturation (normalized peak oil temp is the indicator in most engines).
I imagine the wear is greatest when the parts are at their coldest temp and are under load. Staring/cranking is conducted under no load.
So a bypass filter will eliminate "contributing elements" that accellerate this normal wear process. Sorta like free radicals attack your DNA and age you quicker.
Larry L what happens to all the cleaner and crud from the enviromentally correct filter ?
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Steve, there would be no reduction in collected material. That's created by the engine. You do have a point about the sovlents (eventually spent) to clean the reusable filter element. For a DIY type ..this sorta just exchanges the diposal efforts from used spin-on filters for spent solvent/paper towel issues. The real savings is in terms of volume in landfills ..I would think. If the cleanings were performed by facilities that already have such handling processes and procedures in place for solvents and other "stuff" ..then it would probably have a decent reduction in environmental impact.
Who are we kidding here? Replace the spin on once a year, toilet paper every couple months, top up and be happy.
I run 8 quarts of synthetic 0w40 in my jeep AMC 360, because of all the extra hoses and oil cooler. I wheel in extreme environments hot and cold, swamp water over the hood. My air filter is sometimes plastered in mud when I replace it. My oil looks like new after 1 year, I have changed toilet paper 3 times and spin on twice, and change the airfilter when it's dirty enough. I'm not planning on changing my oil for another year.
This is a no-brainer, there is no debate for me, I save alot of money by adding 1 quart or 2 every few months. I put 5000$ in rebuilding that engine last year and it better outlive me, cause I can't afford to do it again. I run one of Ralph's motorguard, and I will put some on my tow rig when I get the chance.
I run 8 quarts of synthetic 0w40 in my jeep AMC 360, because of all the extra hoses and oil cooler. I wheel in extreme environments hot and cold, swamp water over the hood. My air filter is sometimes plastered in mud when I replace it. My oil looks like new after 1 year, I have changed toilet paper 3 times and spin on twice, and change the airfilter when it's dirty enough. I'm not planning on changing my oil for another year.
This is a no-brainer, there is no debate for me, I save alot of money by adding 1 quart or 2 every few months. I put 5000$ in rebuilding that engine last year and it better outlive me, cause I can't afford to do it again. I run one of Ralph's motorguard, and I will put some on my tow rig when I get the chance.
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