Bring on the spark plug debate!

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Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
After taking my last 90k set out of my truck that looked like new...I'm not going to replace spark plugs anymore. I suspect they will make it to 200k before throwing a misfire code.

So my vote is to leave them until they break.


It depends on the car.

I have dealt with some cars that say 100,000 miles is fine, but at 60,000 the engine needs them anyway. In addition, they don't have any misfire code.
 
i have found that what the factory calls out for the plugs heat range seam to be to hot for the way i drive, this was many years ago. the factory calls out a heat range for aunt Mary, not me. at one time i think i figured out that increasing the gap .005 in would cause the plug to act 1/2 a heat range hotter. but that would go for only my engine and plug, at that time. plugs now days are a lot different.
 
I get that OEM plugs are best, but what are the engineering reasons? That's what interests me. What makes a copper, silver, gold (do they have gold?), platinum, iridium, etc. plug different from each other? What do racecars use? What are the reasons for a wider or narrower spark gap? Why spend more money on colored spark plug wires? What do performance distributors do better than regular ones? The why is what interests me. Sure, you can never go wrong with OEM plugs, but I guess a little engineering lecture would be interesting, just to satisfy curiosity. At the end of the day, maybe it's boring to some people, and spark plugs are just spark plugs. Fuel economy engineering I find interesting. All the little and big ways car manufacturers are making cars more fuel efficient. But that's another thing.

For instance, this is what one spark plug manufacturer says. Of course, they're biased, but it is interesting:

"What about Iridium Spark Plugs?
Iridium is a super dense material and therefore extremely resistant to wear. That's it!
It is a terrible thermal conductor and a bad electrical conductor, so why would anyone use it to make a spark plug center electrode? Since car manufacturers have to guaranty that their engines stay in-tune for up to 100,000 miles, they can only achieve this with ultra dense Iridium or Platinum.

Nology Silver spark plugs are especially designed for high-performance engines. Silver is the best electrical and thermal conductor of any metal, which makes it the ultimate material for a spark plug's center electrode. The large diameter silver center electrode increases spark carrying ability and spark power. Silver is extremely resistant to erosion, guaranteeing a virtually unchanged electrode gap for the life of the spark plug. Most Nology Silver spark plugs are without a resistor, perfect for performance enthusiasts who demand the most from their engines. For racing or dependability and efficiency for everyday use, Nology Silver spark plugs deliver the most powerful spark."

And they're not legal in CA, which automatically tells you they're awesome, lol. I wonder how they might affect fuel economy. Anyone know?
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
The problem with owners manuals is the specs get outdated as they age. Technology and lubes don't stand still like the manual.

I agree.

My 13 years old manual specifies a spark plug model number, it was outdated 7-8 years ago, that replacement was outdated 2-3 years ago.

If the manual recommends a brand name, go to that website to enter your car/SUV information, it will gives you the latest part number.
 
Thermal
Conductivity
W/(m•K)

Electrical
Conductivity
MS/m

Silver 407 66

Copper 384 57

Gold 310 45

Iridium 147 18

Platinum 70 10

Nickel 59 10

"A wider gap increases the arc LENGTH (and thus AREA) within the A/F mixture between the electrodes, which provides better 'chance' of ignition of lean A/F mixtures which are often NOT easy to ignite--it's called increased "probability of ignition"--the difference in probability between a single-bullet and a shotgun-blast "hitting" the bullseye center of a target.

A narrower gap decreases the arc LENGTH in favor of a slightly HOTTER and LONGER arc duration, but assumes the A/F is always rich-enough to ignite easily." - http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/best-spark-plug-22909.html#post339326

Some swear by copper plugs, being better conductors but more wear prone than iridium. Some racing enthusiasts swear by silver plugs. Others say platinum is better for fuel economy. Who knows.
 
Originally Posted By: freshcedar
I get that OEM plugs are best, but what are the engineering reasons? That's what interests me. What makes a copper, silver, gold (do they have gold?), platinum, iridium, etc. plug different from each other? What do racecars use? What are the reasons for a wider or narrower spark gap? Why spend more money on colored spark plug wires? What do performance distributors do better than regular ones? The why is what interests me. Sure, you can never go wrong with OEM plugs, but I guess a little engineering lecture would be interesting, just to satisfy curiosity. At the end of the day, maybe it's boring to some people, and spark plugs are just spark plugs. Fuel economy engineering I find interesting. All the little and big ways car manufacturers are making cars more fuel efficient. But that's another thing.

For instance, this is what one spark plug manufacturer says. Of course, they're biased, but it is interesting:

"What about Iridium Spark Plugs?
Iridium is a super dense material and therefore extremely resistant to wear. That's it!
It is a terrible thermal conductor and a bad electrical conductor, so why would anyone use it to make a spark plug center electrode? Since car manufacturers have to guaranty that their engines stay in-tune for up to 100,000 miles, they can only achieve this with ultra dense Iridium or Platinum.



Copper is one of the best conductive metals you can use. But it is also soft, so not very durable.

What about Iridium? It's very hard and being a poor conductor, it is alloyed with other metals, such as rhodium, to improve conductivity.

The majority of Platinum & Iridum plugs still use a copper core, with a platinum or iridium tip welded on. The diamter of the tip plays a role in durability vs. spark concentration. Smaller diameter tip = more spark concentration & less durability.

So... the 100,000 mile iridum plugs start with a slightly larger diameter than "performance" irdium. On top of that, they have a platinum disc on the ground electrode.
------------------------------------------------

Next debate... multi-ground spark plugs, for example.... Bosch Platinum +2 & +4..... the key for this is reduced quenching (more exposure of the spark to the air-fuel mixture). Some cars actually use these as OEM plugs, made by Bosch, Denso & NGK....
 
Originally Posted By: freshcedar
Thermal
Conductivity
W/(m•K)

Electrical
Conductivity
MS/m

Silver 407 66

Copper 384 57

Gold 310 45

Iridium 147 18

Platinum 70 10

Nickel 59 10

"A wider gap increases the arc LENGTH (and thus AREA) within the A/F mixture between the electrodes, which provides better 'chance' of ignition of lean A/F mixtures which are often NOT easy to ignite--it's called increased "probability of ignition"--the difference in probability between a single-bullet and a shotgun-blast "hitting" the bullseye center of a target.

A narrower gap decreases the arc LENGTH in favor of a slightly HOTTER and LONGER arc duration, but assumes the A/F is always rich-enough to ignite easily." - http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/best-spark-plug-22909.html#post339326

Some swear by copper plugs, being better conductors but more wear prone than iridium. Some racing enthusiasts swear by silver plugs. Others say platinum is better for fuel economy. Who knows.
In high voltage, very low current applications it hardly matters what the metal is, the small amount in a plug won't contribute enough resistance to matter, in fact for electrical noise supression, electrical resistance is ADDED to plugs, hence the "R" in NGK numbers. There are Federal regulations relating to RF radiation from ignition systems. Even lawn mowers have to be shipped with "R" type plugs. In a car with easy to ereach plugs, I prefer NGK single electrode platinums, less shrouding of the spark. For hars to reach applications, go with the longest lasting iridiums.
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
After taking my last 90k set out of my truck that looked like new...I'm not going to replace spark plugs anymore. I suspect they will make it to 200k before throwing a misfire code.

So my vote is to leave them until they break.


The only bad thing about waiting too long is that you put more stress on the coils and burn more gasoline costing more $$ than just changing plugs which are cheap. When a plug starts to miss enough to set a code or feel- you're too late.
 
We went through this two months ago. OP must be new here. Hint:- grab your multimeter and measure the resistance of your plug and then come back and argue how copper is better than iridium.
 
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I agree you cannot go wrong with the OEM plug in most cases.

I do like Autolite spark plugs.



This.
 
Originally Posted By: freshcedar
I get that OEM plugs are best, but what are the engineering reasons? That's what interests me. What makes a copper, silver, gold (do they have gold?), platinum, iridium, etc. plug different from each other? What do racecars use? What are the reasons for a wider or narrower spark gap? Why spend more money on colored spark plug wires? What do performance distributors do better than regular ones? The why is what interests me. Sure, you can never go wrong with OEM plugs, but I guess a little engineering lecture would be interesting, just to satisfy curiosity. At the end of the day, maybe it's boring to some people, and spark plugs are just spark plugs. Fuel economy engineering I find interesting. All the little and big ways car manufacturers are making cars more fuel efficient. But that's another thing.

For instance, this is what one spark plug manufacturer says. Of course, they're biased, but it is interesting:

"What about Iridium Spark Plugs?
Iridium is a super dense material and therefore extremely resistant to wear. That's it!
It is a terrible thermal conductor and a bad electrical conductor, so why would anyone use it to make a spark plug center electrode? Since car manufacturers have to guaranty that their engines stay in-tune for up to 100,000 miles, they can only achieve this with ultra dense Iridium or Platinum.

Nology Silver spark plugs are especially designed for high-performance engines. Silver is the best electrical and thermal conductor of any metal, which makes it the ultimate material for a spark plug's center electrode. The large diameter silver center electrode increases spark carrying ability and spark power. Silver is extremely resistant to erosion, guaranteeing a virtually unchanged electrode gap for the life of the spark plug. Most Nology Silver spark plugs are without a resistor, perfect for performance enthusiasts who demand the most from their engines. For racing or dependability and efficiency for everyday use, Nology Silver spark plugs deliver the most powerful spark."

And they're not legal in CA, which automatically tells you they're awesome, lol. I wonder how they might affect fuel economy. Anyone know?


Finally revealing who you really are (an advertisement agent for Nology)?

Let me give you some engineering reason why silver is not used for spark plug. It wears too fast at the melting point of 962C, even lower than nickel's 1455C, platinum's 1768C, and iridium's 2447C. So, your same design silver plug would probably only last 15k miles when the same nickle steel (aka copper) plug would last 30k.

Thermal conductivity doesn't matter when you are dealing with plugs that have heat range. If it is so good at removing heat you have to reduce the amount of heat it can get out of the plug elsewhere (side electrode, the thread, etc).

Electrical conductivity doesn't matter either when you are dealing with resistance inside the OEM design plug. You rely on that not only to suppress RF noise, but it's also important to restrict the current during ignition to protect the coil (you do not want a current loop to have only 10Ohm resistance of the wire, the current can be so big that it fried the weakest part of the loop which is the ignition coil). When the voltage is high enough to spark, the air gap goes from high resistance to little resistance, it is like shorting a battery's positive to negative, and can put a lot of stress on the coil or wire. The majority of "electrical conductivity" advantage Nology's plug have is due to it being non resistor (hence illegal in California).

Wider center electrode is not to increase current carrying capability. It is to compensate for the low melting point of the silver and it would raise the ignition voltage, making it less likely to spark. The current would be limited by the graphite plug wire, the thin copper wire in ignition coil, the connection contact surface between the wire and plug, the wire and coil / distributor, the air gap between the distributor cap/rotor, etc long before the size of the center electrode or the material.

So, you have a choice of more likely to spark, last longer, less likely to kill your coil plug (platinum, iridium with resistor) or a less likely to spark, last shorter, and more likely to kill your coil plug (silver without resistor), which one to choose? The answer is obvious.

p.s. if silver is so good why would OEM use the more expensive platinum and iridium?
 
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I knew there must be a reason silver plugs are never used. Very informative, thanks. At the end of the day, I'm not too concerned with what plugs to use. I'll probably just stick with OEM, which I did with the car I just got. Some say off-brand or 'american' spark plugs shouldn't be used in Asian cars, and vice versa. Finding champion spark plugs in a Honda, instead of NGK or Denso for instance. But yeah, can't go wrong with OEM. But if an OEM calls for a copper plug, I don't see anything wrong with upgrading to a Platinum or Iridium plug. I'm almost certain car manufacturers have put in copper plugs or other cheaper and less optimal parts to save money, and there's always room to upgrade and improve. Though I don't have a problem with copper plugs. One car I have has very expensive Iridium spark plugs, and my other car has copper plugs, both OEM.
 
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Actually silver has been used for spark plug electrodes in the recent past.

My own 96 VW Golf GL (2.0 ABA engine ) has a factory specification for a Bosch Silber (sliver) plug.

It is a single tip ground electrode as well.

The replacement interval is 30k.

Even my old 1984 VW Rabbit GTI came standard with Bosch silver tip plugs.

The primary reason was to reduce any change of misfiring due to low emissions requirements. Pretty advanced for the mid 80s.
 
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That is really interesting. I wonder if VW were the only ones using silver at the time. Anyone know if anyone uses silver today? So it seems that silver has that advantage of being less likely to misfire. I'm sure there's more to the story.

It makes sense and I buy the theory that most manufacturers that recommend iridium plugs do so because of the durability and extremely long life of 100k or so. It's attractive to consumers as well and a good selling point. It may not necessarily make the best spark plug for different applications, such as maybe misfire probability, fuel economy, spark strength, and so on. Then again it may, I don't know. That's what this discussion is about.

I think I'm spending way too much time on motor oil and spark plugs. It interests me too much and I think it's sick, strange, and wrong, and a waste of time. But dang it, the thought of silver spark plugs really interests me, simply for the fact that I love silver. It's my favorite precious metal. And there seems to be a sense of joy in driving with silver spark plugs. I've never done it, but I think I'd like it. Not for any practical reason, but for purely foolish and emotional and impractical reasons. I'm sure they've got a lot of cons to them, which is probably why almost no manufacturers use them or recommend them. But that too adds to the emotional charm of feeling special, lol, even if it means being special in the sense of being the especially foolish minority. I write like a person on drugs.

At the end of the day, what matters is safety and car longevity/reliability, and performance and fuel economy. Not the extra 1 or 2 hp or a tenth of a tenth of a mile per gallon potential gain from some spark plug. So this has been a total waste of time for everyone involved. But thanks so much for playing anyway. You all have been great.
 
It really depends on the car, some are more picky than others, wasted spark systems eat plugs no matter what. On my old sunfire, I would run cheap NGK platinum plugs and change em when it started to idle funny(every 15k miles or so). My 99 Prizm cals for a funny looking dual ground copper plug, only made by Denso and NGK, its all I plan on using in it. If it calls for something special, use it, if not, feel free to experiment.
 
Spark plugs wear out from the sharp edges, gradually round them out and then increase the gap size.

When you have sharp edges, you have very low firing voltage as electric field is the strongest at the edge, so you have much lower misfire rate and increase performance and fuel economy. This is where in the same design, a more durable material will provide better performance at the same interval. As in, if you replace your platinum plug and iridium plug every 30k like your "copper", you will have better fuel economy than copper at exactly 30k. Reducing the firing electrode size increase the magnetic field strength and therefore reducing the firing voltage and misfire rate further, at the expense of plug life.

So to achieve the same result you can either change the plugs more frequently by throwing away still good plugs, or use stronger material plugs for the same (or just long enough) time.

The main reason one manufacture is better than the other in a particular model is the fuel and ignition map is calibrated for it. If your plug is designed to mimic the OEM and is made right, it should have no difference. If your fuel and ignition map is tuned for the particular plug, it would run the best. It doesn't means other plugs are inferior in material or workmanship, just they are not guaranteed to be optimal match. Some manufacturers have a lot of OEM contracts and a fine tuned selection for all, so they work the best (i.e. NGK), others use a few plugs to cover lots of applications and end up with wrong heat range or resistor value and run poor as a result.
 
Too many blanket statements here, varies by application.

Example: 5.7 Hemi ships with cheapos, 6.1 ships with NGK plat/iridium hybrids. Nearly identical engines with the EXACT SAME IGNITION systems. They both run well on many different plugs.

In these motors you can choose the plug by how often you like to fool with it. For many cars the smaller the engine the more critical your plug choice becomes!
 
A Mazda tech bulletin from Hiroshima states that the Mazda Skyactiv-G engine must use the iridium/platinum hybrid plugs to avoid misfire or "driveability issues." I am guessing that it's probably due to the engine's 12:1 compression ratio.
 
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