MolaKule
Staff member
And I always say that the used oil analyis is not for the oil, but for the engine. It's good to know how the engine is trending with a particular oil.
Breaking people of the 3000 mile oil change habit
- Thread starter Patman
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Well - the way I drive, no oil I have ever ran ever looked/smelled/felt/tasted
like new oil when at the 3K mark. It is a $15 comfort for me to change it at 2,000-3,000 miles fully knowing I'm always running superclean supernew oil in my shiny camaro. Its shiny on the outside, and shiny on the inside, and thats the way I like it.
Furthermore, I'd rather change DINO Valvoline every 1500-2000 miles and know its clean and like new than I would run synthetic 7,000 to "get my money out of it". Heck, with the amount I save on buying 87 octane and cheap butter for my bread, I make up several times over on changing my oil early.
I am not going to get rich by changing my oil less often, and I don't think I'm going to go broke changing my oil every 3K. Clean, good, like-new oil is a comfort to me when driving my Camaro in the summer heat and thats that
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Tell me patman, what is so GOOD about changing the oil less often? How much money am I really going to SAVE?
Say I drive 15,000miles per year. Say an oil change costs me $20 in components.
Oil Change Chart:
Every 3,000 = $100/annually
Every 5,000 = $60/annually
Every 7,500 = $40/annually
So I save $60 max a year? Whats that...1-3 hours of labor at my job? And what if the oil costs more - do I really save anything at all? What benefits do I get for changing it LESS often besides possibly cost? BFD I say - its not enough for me to worry about. The 3,000 mile "hassle" I enjoy, and it gives me a chance to inspect my car head to toe
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[ July 30, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Dominic ]
Furthermore, I'd rather change DINO Valvoline every 1500-2000 miles and know its clean and like new than I would run synthetic 7,000 to "get my money out of it". Heck, with the amount I save on buying 87 octane and cheap butter for my bread, I make up several times over on changing my oil early.
I am not going to get rich by changing my oil less often, and I don't think I'm going to go broke changing my oil every 3K. Clean, good, like-new oil is a comfort to me when driving my Camaro in the summer heat and thats that
Tell me patman, what is so GOOD about changing the oil less often? How much money am I really going to SAVE?
Say I drive 15,000miles per year. Say an oil change costs me $20 in components.
Oil Change Chart:
Every 3,000 = $100/annually
Every 5,000 = $60/annually
Every 7,500 = $40/annually
So I save $60 max a year? Whats that...1-3 hours of labor at my job? And what if the oil costs more - do I really save anything at all? What benefits do I get for changing it LESS often besides possibly cost? BFD I say - its not enough for me to worry about. The 3,000 mile "hassle" I enjoy, and it gives me a chance to inspect my car head to toe
[ July 30, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Dominic ]
Dominic
My sentiments exactly. Could not have said it better. The general attitude of most people on this forum is strange to say the least when you think most of you are living in the richest country on the planet and have more after tax $ to spend than anybody anywhere. Quibbling over a $1 or so more for a quart of oil or an oil filter is laughable to those of us in other countries.
My sentiments exactly. Could not have said it better. The general attitude of most people on this forum is strange to say the least when you think most of you are living in the richest country on the planet and have more after tax $ to spend than anybody anywhere. Quibbling over a $1 or so more for a quart of oil or an oil filter is laughable to those of us in other countries.
Patman
Staff member
It's not so much that it saves you money and time, for me it's simply the fact that it's not neccessary. Even if you stretched it to 4 or 5k, you'd see the same results.
Most people don't care when it comes to the environment ( everyone talks the talk but very few walk the walk) but changing oil every 3000 miles if not needed does waste resources and does impair the environment (depending on what is done with the used oil) .
Most people don't really care though,
Most people don't really care though,
I was in that position 30 years ago with my brand new shiny '69 Camaro. I am even more meticulous now with my vehicles. But I honestly believe and based on what I have seen in my working career with syns that changing at the upper recommended limit with syn is the way to go. Also I can (and do) spend more time actually cleaning my car and inspecting without going through the dirty oil thing. Waaaaaait a minute!!!!! I said earlier its a waste of time trying to convert people to that mode!!quote:
Originally posted by Dominic:
Well - the way I drive, no oil I have ever ran ever looked/smelled/felt/tastedlike new oil when at the 3K mark. It is a $15 comfort for me to change it at 2,000-3,000 miles fully knowing I'm always running superclean supernew oil in my shiny camaro. Its shiny on the outside, and shiny on the inside, and thats the way I like it.
. Clean, good, like-new oil is a comfort to me when driving my Camaro in the summer heat and thats that.
Tell me patman, what is so GOOD about changing the oil less often? How much money am I really going to SAVE?
Say I drive 15,000miles per year. Say an oil change costs me $20 in components.
Oil Change Chart:
Every 3,000 = $100/annually
Every 5,000 = $60/annually
Every 7,500 = $40/annually
So I save $60 max a year? Whats that...1-3 hours of labor at my job? And what if the oil costs more - do I really save anything at all? What benefits do I get for changing it LESS often besides possibly cost? BFD I say - its not enough for me to worry about. The 3,000 mile "hassle" I enjoy, and it gives me a chance to inspect my car head to toe.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the debate on sub 10 micron particles causing wear
Sure its not proven but that is a good excuse to change oil...if you don't know whats going on in your engine
Oil analysis tells us our oil isn't hurting the engine.
The side benefit is it can also allow longer drains.
(perhaps to recoup the cost of analysis)
Or it tells me I better use a different oil or change it more often
Me thinks (for some) the 3,000 oil change is about fear of the unknown.
Analysis dispells that fear.
Sure its not proven but that is a good excuse to change oil...if you don't know whats going on in your engine
Oil analysis tells us our oil isn't hurting the engine.
The side benefit is it can also allow longer drains.
(perhaps to recoup the cost of analysis)
Or it tells me I better use a different oil or change it more often
Me thinks (for some) the 3,000 oil change is about fear of the unknown.
Analysis dispells that fear.
Patman
Staff member
I honestly don't think the 10 micron and smaller particles cause as much wear as we've been led to believe. Even Terry admits that he hasn't seen much difference on the oil analysis results with people using a 10 micron filter like the Mobil 1, compared to a 25 micron filter like the AC Delco.
I think it might be more critical on an engine with very small clearances, but I think most engines out there have large enough clearances that most 15-20 micron particles can pass through the engine without doing any harm. Although it's still nice to have that extra peace of mind of a lower micron filter nonetheless. In this regard I've decided to switch to the Purolator Premium Plus filters from the AC Delco. They are around the same price but their filtering efficiency doesn't look too bad, not that far off from some of the much higher priced filters.
I think it might be more critical on an engine with very small clearances, but I think most engines out there have large enough clearances that most 15-20 micron particles can pass through the engine without doing any harm. Although it's still nice to have that extra peace of mind of a lower micron filter nonetheless. In this regard I've decided to switch to the Purolator Premium Plus filters from the AC Delco. They are around the same price but their filtering efficiency doesn't look too bad, not that far off from some of the much higher priced filters.
Where do you get the numbers for 10 microns for the Mobil 1??
I just don't see a full flow filter that will have enough flow to filter at 10 microns and still keep enough oil going to the engine.
Thinking about this, maybe its not the wear you should worry about, but by filtering smaller microns, which would also include, soot(some not all) sludge, varnish, moisture, glycol, fuel and other contaminants your oil does not have to work as hard. Therefore the oil can work harder at lubricating and cooling.
[ July 30, 2002, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]
Mola Kule mentioned using a bore scope to check on sludge and varnish. I don't have one, are they expensive?
Patman
Staff member
I think the Mobil 1 website mentions it's a 10 micron filter, but it's also mentioned here too:
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart6.htm
A big benefit in my opinion of the 3K oil change is that my mechanic, being meticulous, thoroughly checks out my cars and truck when they're up on the lift every two months or so. He charges $10 labor for an oil change and I supply the filters and oil. That $10 also gets trained eyes with 30+ years experience to inspect the vehicles that I depend on to safely transport my family.
Here is the datasheet on the mobil 1 filter: http://www.mobil.com/mobil_productdata/automotive/transmission/oilfilterpds_content.ht ml
No mention of 10 micron filteration effeciency.
My best guess it would be around 18-20+ microns with 95% multipass effeciency. (About the same as the Amsoil SDF filter)
Though a thourough reading of this doesn't speak very highly of convnentional media filter. I can also agree with that
Hence a $2 filter is a $2 filter!!!
[ July 30, 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: msparks ]
Not to take away from what is basically a good read, but here are a few facts that I might not necessarily agree with.
2533a
That $10 also gets trained eyes with 30+ years experience to inspect the vehicles that I depend on to safely transport my family.
Well, hopefully you are correct. However, I trust no mechanic to inspect my car. they are under the gun to produce revenue, perform any job in as short a time as possible and move on to the next one. Only point in your favor is that they may find something to generate more revenue if times are slow and may actually insect the car looking for more work. In a high volume dealership or garage it is doubtful they do more then a quick drain and fill and have time to replace the filter
That $10 also gets trained eyes with 30+ years experience to inspect the vehicles that I depend on to safely transport my family.
Well, hopefully you are correct. However, I trust no mechanic to inspect my car. they are under the gun to produce revenue, perform any job in as short a time as possible and move on to the next one. Only point in your favor is that they may find something to generate more revenue if times are slow and may actually insect the car looking for more work. In a high volume dealership or garage it is doubtful they do more then a quick drain and fill and have time to replace the filter
Patman
Staff member
When I got stuck going to the dealer for those 3k oil changes (for that stupid aftermarket warranty) I seriously doubt they looked over my car all that closely. I could probably have a brake cable cut and they wouldn't have even noticed.
Spector,
My mechanic Gary is an independent with a one bay garage. No quotas to meet other than self imposed ones! Charges for actual time spent rather than by the flat rate manual.
Gary has been good to me for over 10 years and always gives me feedback on the vehicle condition. Did an awesome job modifying my old '84 GTI (head work, exhaust, and cam) back in the early 90s as well.
How many mechanics deliver your vehicle to your house after the work is done? Gary (or his wife who minds the scheduling, parts ordering and books) has done this for me for years. Gotta love a picky mechanic with an extraordinary level of service.
My mechanic Gary is an independent with a one bay garage. No quotas to meet other than self imposed ones! Charges for actual time spent rather than by the flat rate manual.
Gary has been good to me for over 10 years and always gives me feedback on the vehicle condition. Did an awesome job modifying my old '84 GTI (head work, exhaust, and cam) back in the early 90s as well.
How many mechanics deliver your vehicle to your house after the work is done? Gary (or his wife who minds the scheduling, parts ordering and books) has done this for me for years. Gotta love a picky mechanic with an extraordinary level of service.
A lot is tradition, a lot is economics 101. I try to get people to extend the intervals from the 1200 miles they are used to to 4,000 miles. Mechanics and oil change places often tell me they don't want a 4,000 mile oil because they will have 1/4 the sales. I change a fleet of 120 taxis. With the previous oil they went 10 days between changes. Now they go 40 days. For a driver who earns $100 a month, saving 3 oil changes at $15 each is a big deal.
But a lot depends on the quality of the oil. I have demonstrated with analisis that what I sell has better additive levels, less wear, better viscosity and other "betters" at 4,000 miles than a lot of competitor oils at 1,000 miles. I showed one customer that Delo was better in all of the above at 12,000 miles than the oil he was using straight out of the drum. He used to change oil every 3,000. By extending to 12,000 miles he has sold 6 of his 16 tractor-trailers and eliminated 1 mechanic.
But a lot depends on the quality of the oil. I have demonstrated with analisis that what I sell has better additive levels, less wear, better viscosity and other "betters" at 4,000 miles than a lot of competitor oils at 1,000 miles. I showed one customer that Delo was better in all of the above at 12,000 miles than the oil he was using straight out of the drum. He used to change oil every 3,000. By extending to 12,000 miles he has sold 6 of his 16 tractor-trailers and eliminated 1 mechanic.
I still don't understand the reason to extend the drains if you don't need to. I'm not saying oil isn't good for longer intervals than 3,000 - but who will argue with me that new oil is worse than 3000mile oil?
Oil in an engine cooks - it varnishes - its chopped and slid on - and it really takes a beating. 3,000 miles is usually 2-3months of driving in most people's vehicles, and as I said before from a personal economic standpoint the value of changing it early outweighs the value of not.
Perhaps if I had 300 truckers in a fleet running their trucks day in and day out I might consider cutting costs by extending my drain interval. For my personal car however, I gain relatively nothing from extending my drain interval financially - and I hurt nothing mechanically by changing it early from what I can tell.
Same goes for coolant - I'm an extremist with coolant. I run 70% water / 30% glycol during the summer months, and switch back to 50/50 during the winter. I use only pure distilled water, and I flush the system every 3 years and continually make sure its topped off. Furthermore I run a lower temperature thermostat to make sure everything runs nice and chilly when on the highway.
Oil in an engine cooks - it varnishes - its chopped and slid on - and it really takes a beating. 3,000 miles is usually 2-3months of driving in most people's vehicles, and as I said before from a personal economic standpoint the value of changing it early outweighs the value of not.
Perhaps if I had 300 truckers in a fleet running their trucks day in and day out I might consider cutting costs by extending my drain interval. For my personal car however, I gain relatively nothing from extending my drain interval financially - and I hurt nothing mechanically by changing it early from what I can tell.
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