Molakule has spoken.
He is an actual expert so personally I would follow his recommendation to the letter.
He is an actual expert so personally I would follow his recommendation to the letter.
Break in reman engine: Best Dino + Maybe Additive
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Molakule rebuilds engines? News to me. He's a cool dude, but experience comes in to play with this engine design.
I'm firing up customers AMC 2.5L and Toy 22RE next week with our bulk Penwood 5W30. The assembly lube is all they will need.
I'm firing up customers AMC 2.5L and Toy 22RE next week with our bulk Penwood 5W30. The assembly lube is all they will need.
Originally Posted By: Zaedock
Molakule rebuilds engines? News to me. He's a cool dude, but experience comes in to play with this engine design.
I'm firing up customers AMC 2.5L and Toy 22RE next week with our bulk Penwood 5W30. The assembly lube is all they will need.
Seriously?
He's a tribologists who is employed by a known lubricant manufacturer which means he knows exactly what a new engine requires at break in as far as formulation.
Don't be so obtuse. Did I really need to explain that or do you find pleasure in that kind of nonsense.
Molakule rebuilds engines? News to me. He's a cool dude, but experience comes in to play with this engine design.
I'm firing up customers AMC 2.5L and Toy 22RE next week with our bulk Penwood 5W30. The assembly lube is all they will need.
Seriously?
He's a tribologists who is employed by a known lubricant manufacturer which means he knows exactly what a new engine requires at break in as far as formulation.
Don't be so obtuse. Did I really need to explain that or do you find pleasure in that kind of nonsense.
I've known who he is much longer than you. Doesn't mean he knows what every engine on Earth requires for break in.
I have countless AMC engines under my belt. Never needed a break in additive on a stock reman. NEW 4.0L engines never used a break in oil and their life expectancy is several hundred thousand miles.
I have countless AMC engines under my belt. Never needed a break in additive on a stock reman. NEW 4.0L engines never used a break in oil and their life expectancy is several hundred thousand miles.
BTW - Mola listed some great beak in oils that are widely used in the aftermarket world. THIS design however, does not NEED them to be properly broken in.
I'm trying to wrap my head around PYB being a bad choice because of the high moly content. Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines? No flames intended I'm trying to understand why he said that, that's all.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
Originally Posted By: ChevyBadger
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why not just follow the builders recommendations?
Who cares about the oil! One filter, one oci!
I agree!
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why not just follow the builders recommendations?
Who cares about the oil! One filter, one oci!
I agree!
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Many manufacturers recommend moly. My Honda CBR1000F wanted Molykote Gn paste on the main, rod, cam bearings and cam lobes. Another wants a mix with oil.
This is from the CBR600F 4 FSM.
I have used Moly on the cam lobes, bearings and crank/rod bearings since i started in this profession in 1970 as a student and never lost a cam or a bearing in a rebuild.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Doesn't Honda use a boat load of moly in their new engines?
If I recall correctly, if the moly concentration gets high enough, it acts as an AW compound.
Many manufacturers recommend moly. My Honda CBR1000F wanted Molykote Gn paste on the main, rod, cam bearings and cam lobes. Another wants a mix with oil.
This is from the CBR600F 4 FSM.
I have used Moly on the cam lobes, bearings and crank/rod bearings since i started in this profession in 1970 as a student and never lost a cam or a bearing in a rebuild.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
Originally Posted By: Garak
I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
Thats a good point! The most important time in a rebuilds life is the the first few seconds when it is started and for the next 20-30 min after.
The worst possible thing that can happen is a dry start, then the cam needs to kept at approx 2200-2500 RPM for 20-30 min or it can wear fail very quickly.
If anyone has felt Gn paste it feels almost like an abrasive, it isn't of course but it has a lot of lets say texture to it.
Cams break in perfectly with it and after 30 min its effect is no longer needed. You have one shot at breaking in a cam, if that opportunity isn't taken advantage of with the first firing its a done deal.
I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
Thats a good point! The most important time in a rebuilds life is the the first few seconds when it is started and for the next 20-30 min after.
The worst possible thing that can happen is a dry start, then the cam needs to kept at approx 2200-2500 RPM for 20-30 min or it can wear fail very quickly.
If anyone has felt Gn paste it feels almost like an abrasive, it isn't of course but it has a lot of lets say texture to it.
Cams break in perfectly with it and after 30 min its effect is no longer needed. You have one shot at breaking in a cam, if that opportunity isn't taken advantage of with the first firing its a done deal.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
My theory is those engines are already broken in and by the extra moly seen in those FF oils, they want the least amount of friction and heat for those first few hundred miles after they roll of the assembly line.
Consider this break-in oil additive:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=21
There is no moly in it by their own analysis.
This assembly lube below has high levels of ZDDP and high levels of calcium, because they want some rust protection for rebuilt engines they may not be fired up for awhile.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=136&pcid=17
As I stated before, what you want in a break-in oil is major anti-wear additives and no friction modifiers, because you want mechanical forces to shear-off those asperities.
Friction modifiers prevent the above from happenning.
You want the anti-wear additives to prevent the removal of large volumes of material from galling, adhesion, fretting, etc.
And yes, I have rebuilt many MTs, ATs, and engines, mostly 350 and 358 SB's.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Is it that high in PYB, that it would exceed the level of Honda's FF? Thanks.
PYB has high moly, but it's not as high as some of the levels as we've seen in factory fills. Look at Trav's mention of and use of the paste. I think in an analysis, that would jack the moly levels right up. In fact, as others have brought up here before, I'm not so sure that some of these factory fills were moly fortified oils as much as there simply was the use of a moly assembly lube.
My theory is those engines are already broken in and by the extra moly seen in those FF oils, they want the least amount of friction and heat for those first few hundred miles after they roll of the assembly line.
Consider this break-in oil additive:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=21
There is no moly in it by their own analysis.
This assembly lube below has high levels of ZDDP and high levels of calcium, because they want some rust protection for rebuilt engines they may not be fired up for awhile.
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=136&pcid=17
As I stated before, what you want in a break-in oil is major anti-wear additives and no friction modifiers, because you want mechanical forces to shear-off those asperities.
Friction modifiers prevent the above from happenning.
You want the anti-wear additives to prevent the removal of large volumes of material from galling, adhesion, fretting, etc.
And yes, I have rebuilt many MTs, ATs, and engines, mostly 350 and 358 SB's.
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^^ Thanks for clearing that up for me.
No problem but why does Honda specifically require its use for assy on rebuilt engine?
I mean its a fair question seeing as its in the FSM IMO.
I mean its a fair question seeing as its in the FSM IMO.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
There is nothing wrong with PYB in normal, after break-in use.
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
There is nothing wrong with PYB in normal, after break-in use.
Last edited:
Check these out..
http://www.crower.com/camshaft-assembly-lubricant.html
Quote:
ZPaste is a proprietary formulation of Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate (ZDDP) types with a Molybdenum DiSulfide (MoS2) additive in a new formulation Calcium Sulfonate base
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=25301
Quote:
Crane Cams Super Moly Lube (1 lb. container) is a moly- disulfide base lubricant, for use on cam lobes, lifters and distributor drive gears and should be used for all cam installations (except for roller lifter applications).
https://www.emisupply.com/catalog/loctit...CFUMOOgod6z0A_A
Quote:
Extreme pressure camshaft lubricant with molybdenum disulfide protects camshaft lobes from galling at start up
http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55911
Quote:
I got my new cam for my DT414. The service manual recommends using MOLYKOTE G-N METAL ASSEMBLY PASTE on the cam.
Quote:
Dow Corning
®
G-n Metal Assembly Paste lubricates surfaces subjected to
extreme pressures. Specific applications include:
• Running-in lubricant – for new or rebuilt equipment, such as gears,
splines, journal bearings, cams and ways
http://catalog.mooreballiewoil.com/Asset/pds-173.pdf
There is nothing wrong with ZDDP but Moly has been trusted for decades for assembly of engines and cams and it works like a charm.
http://www.crower.com/camshaft-assembly-lubricant.html
Quote:
ZPaste is a proprietary formulation of Zinc Dialkyl DithioPhosphate (ZDDP) types with a Molybdenum DiSulfide (MoS2) additive in a new formulation Calcium Sulfonate base
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=25301
Quote:
Crane Cams Super Moly Lube (1 lb. container) is a moly- disulfide base lubricant, for use on cam lobes, lifters and distributor drive gears and should be used for all cam installations (except for roller lifter applications).
https://www.emisupply.com/catalog/loctit...CFUMOOgod6z0A_A
Quote:
Extreme pressure camshaft lubricant with molybdenum disulfide protects camshaft lobes from galling at start up
http://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55911
Quote:
I got my new cam for my DT414. The service manual recommends using MOLYKOTE G-N METAL ASSEMBLY PASTE on the cam.
Quote:
Dow Corning
®
G-n Metal Assembly Paste lubricates surfaces subjected to
extreme pressures. Specific applications include:
• Running-in lubricant – for new or rebuilt equipment, such as gears,
splines, journal bearings, cams and ways
http://catalog.mooreballiewoil.com/Asset/pds-173.pdf
There is nothing wrong with ZDDP but Moly has been trusted for decades for assembly of engines and cams and it works like a charm.
I've always taken it that the Moly Disulfide was good (for cams, not cylinders), but that the MoDTC is possible not the best idea.
As to what not to use, I'm pretty sure that more then 1 smal block Ford and Pontiac have ever been broken in.
I'd find out what GasMonkey Garage use for break-in...and NOT use that.
As to what not to use, I'm pretty sure that more then 1 smal block Ford and Pontiac have ever been broken in.
I'd find out what GasMonkey Garage use for break-in...and NOT use that.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
Mola answered it better than I could have. The only thing I'd reinforce is that PYB's moly level is in the friction modification range, perhaps not high enough to be in the AW range.
Mola: Here's a question. Given that race oils have some pretty high ZDDP levels and some rather low TBN, how would they be for break in? Or, do they have issues with friction modifiers? I see so many break in lubes as monogrades, and just wonder if there are better options out there.
I agree and realize that. I was looking for an answer as to why PYB, a Bitog favorite was on his short list of oils not to use.
Mola answered it better than I could have. The only thing I'd reinforce is that PYB's moly level is in the friction modification range, perhaps not high enough to be in the AW range.
Mola: Here's a question. Given that race oils have some pretty high ZDDP levels and some rather low TBN, how would they be for break in? Or, do they have issues with friction modifiers? I see so many break in lubes as monogrades, and just wonder if there are better options out there.
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