Break in, Oil and New Honda Civic Si ADVICE PLEASE
- Thread starter Cicero
- Start date
- Status
as a ex honda tech. that their clean rooms for engine asselby nice and clean but there is still going to be hair and dirt along with plastic floating around inside the engine. honda is not as good as people think. to me i would not by any of their bigger cars.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
They may leave dirt, hair, and sand in those GM engines. But this is a Honda, and I have it on good authority they don't leave dirt, hair and sand in their engines.
Since you're a GM employee, I would hope not, as that wouldn't say much for the quality of GM's products.
There are some people who worship the Honda corporation that might have a problem with your statement.quote:
Originally posted by novaracer69:
as a ex honda tech. that their clean rooms for engine asselby nice and clean but there is still going to be hair and dirt along with plastic floating around inside the engine. honda is not as good as people think. to me i would not by any of their bigger cars.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
They may leave dirt, hair, and sand in those GM engines. But this is a Honda, and I have it on good authority they don't leave dirt, hair and sand in their engines.
OK. I know I'm slow at times, but searching I cannot find any proof of anything "unique" about Honda Factory fill other then everyone seems to repeat that it is high in moly. I say the unique aspect of Honda FFill seems to be that it causes confusion and division in BITOG threads.
Please, is there a VOA Honda FFILL that says their IS OR ISN'T anything "special" in it. I am not finding a post if there is one. If Honda FFILL it just high moly dino...how high does the moly have to be to match it?
If Havoline is a virtual perfect substitute for Honda FFill, then my oil is coming out when I get home...50-100 miles UOA, at 1K or as soon as the UOA comes back and then at 3K and see what 's happening at that point.
Please, is there a VOA Honda FFILL that says their IS OR ISN'T anything "special" in it. I am not finding a post if there is one. If Honda FFILL it just high moly dino...how high does the moly have to be to match it?
If Havoline is a virtual perfect substitute for Honda FFill, then my oil is coming out when I get home...50-100 miles UOA, at 1K or as soon as the UOA comes back and then at 3K and see what 's happening at that point.
ok, not to fuel the fire but my dad happens to be an engineer for toyota and is currently working in Japan. He has always told me that to ensure the engine is broken in properly, try to redline the engine as much as you can. He said the only reason why they dont recommend this method is due to liability and laws. Imagine new car drivers redlining on the highway doing 110mph and breaking the law? Sorry but not only has he said it but done it too. He's had 4 cars reach over 400,000 miles using his approach.
No one has to do 110 mph to redline the engine. You do it at 0mph in neutral if one wanted. Or 1st or 2nd if a some load is desired.
Since I've worked in the automotive industry, I know the rest of your statement has no credibility.
A $20 UOA doesn't show everything that may be in the oil. How many UOAs even show Sb (Antimony)?
In any event, as someone famous once said, "I feel your pain." Unfortunately proprietary information restrictions makes it difficult for you to acquire the hard data you want.
Here's is what one Honda user decided to do:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=003592#000000
In effect he split the difference and used Havoline to match the FF as best he could with a $20 UOA.
If it works, why don't any auto makers suggest to break-in their cars the way he says to? Maybe someone should link the honda engineers to mr mototune's web site so that they can see the light and learn a thing or two..quote:
Originally posted by BlazerLT:
Why, because it works?quote:
Originally posted by sxg6:
Please... i can't stand it when people throw that site around.
Why does it matter if Honda's oil factory fill is "different" than off the shelf oil??? The point is, Honda claim is the oil is to be left in the motor for 5k-7500k miles for proper break in.
Ditto in Honda ATV's...no break in proceedure besides change the oil at 100 miles or 20 hours.
The mototuneusa web site break in proceedure is used VERY often at countless testing grounds. From cars to motorcycles, they are run very similar to motouneusa's claims. And the very same bikes and cars are often used for long term, high mileage reports.
Engine Break-in today is more like the #1 diet rule:
***Too much of any one thing is bad***, until the first recomended OC per the MFG.
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid
Ditto in Honda ATV's...no break in proceedure besides change the oil at 100 miles or 20 hours.
The mototuneusa web site break in proceedure is used VERY often at countless testing grounds. From cars to motorcycles, they are run very similar to motouneusa's claims. And the very same bikes and cars are often used for long term, high mileage reports.
Engine Break-in today is more like the #1 diet rule:
***Too much of any one thing is bad***, until the first recomended OC per the MFG.
KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid
According to my UOA of my new Honda's oil change at 1800, it is only a good, high moly oil. Nothing special or overtly unique.
My honda engine stopped showing small amounts of fuel at 4500 miles. That is when the engine can be considered broken in.
Then Mobil 1 5W-20 then on out. Absolutely NO oil use at 14000 miles.
My honda engine stopped showing small amounts of fuel at 4500 miles. That is when the engine can be considered broken in.
Then Mobil 1 5W-20 then on out. Absolutely NO oil use at 14000 miles.
50-100 miles and then synthetic. Maybe.quote:
Originally posted by Al:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
....I like to get the origional oil out of there in the first 1000 ules....Havoline has a boatload of moly.....Or you can put synthetic in the minute you get home.
If I remember my BITOG readings three years ago there seemed to be two camps on using synthetics from the start vs. use dino oil to about 10K or so. Is this still a highly debated point?
Here's something I found online.
-------------------------------------------------
A new engine has to break in properly in order to have a strong, healthy life. You want a little friction in the break in process in order to, well, break in. If you use a synthetic oil too soon, you'll run the risk of not properly breaking in the engine. Synthetic oils have a much smoother (viscosity?) and thus provides LESS friction.
This is ok after your break in period to free up a horsepower or two.
QUOTED FROM HONDASWAP.COM:
let the engine idle for 10 min then idle at 2000 rpm for 10 min. turn car off and let it settle for about 5-10 min.
0-200 miles.
Try to keep the highest rpm under 3000 rpm. Every 15-20 miles,spin the engine to 4500 rpm in first and sometimes in second gear.
200-400 miles.
Try to keep the revs limited to 3500 rpm. Raise the revs rpm to 5500 with the same frequency as above.
400-600 miles.
Go to 4000 rpm for driving limit. Raise the revs to 6000 - 6500 rpm and include 3rd gear pulls, same frequency as above.
600-800 miles.
4500 rpm driving limit. rev it to 7000 rpm and include partial 4th gear pulls.
800-1K miles.
5000 rpm limit with revs to 7500 with some pulls all the way through 4th and partial fifth gear pulls.
Use non synthetic oil for the first 500 miles, change oil with non synthetic,(it is not necessary to change the filter) then once you meet the 1000 mile mark go ahead and change it with a full synthetic and a new oil filter.
Using regular - non-synthetic - is also at your option, but pick one or the other to use from this point forward. Changing back and forth is NOT a good idea.
I personally find synthetic too weak for my motor. It doesn't have enough umph and VTEC ngagement doesn't happen because of the oil pressure factor not being there. This will depend greatly on the motor and what you have done to it, however.
--------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
A new engine has to break in properly in order to have a strong, healthy life. You want a little friction in the break in process in order to, well, break in. If you use a synthetic oil too soon, you'll run the risk of not properly breaking in the engine. Synthetic oils have a much smoother (viscosity?) and thus provides LESS friction.
This is ok after your break in period to free up a horsepower or two.
QUOTED FROM HONDASWAP.COM:
let the engine idle for 10 min then idle at 2000 rpm for 10 min. turn car off and let it settle for about 5-10 min.
0-200 miles.
Try to keep the highest rpm under 3000 rpm. Every 15-20 miles,spin the engine to 4500 rpm in first and sometimes in second gear.
200-400 miles.
Try to keep the revs limited to 3500 rpm. Raise the revs rpm to 5500 with the same frequency as above.
400-600 miles.
Go to 4000 rpm for driving limit. Raise the revs to 6000 - 6500 rpm and include 3rd gear pulls, same frequency as above.
600-800 miles.
4500 rpm driving limit. rev it to 7000 rpm and include partial 4th gear pulls.
800-1K miles.
5000 rpm limit with revs to 7500 with some pulls all the way through 4th and partial fifth gear pulls.
Use non synthetic oil for the first 500 miles, change oil with non synthetic,(it is not necessary to change the filter) then once you meet the 1000 mile mark go ahead and change it with a full synthetic and a new oil filter.
Using regular - non-synthetic - is also at your option, but pick one or the other to use from this point forward. Changing back and forth is NOT a good idea.
I personally find synthetic too weak for my motor. It doesn't have enough umph and VTEC ngagement doesn't happen because of the oil pressure factor not being there. This will depend greatly on the motor and what you have done to it, however.
--------------------------------------------
and you think that a car company is going to tell people to redline it in park/neutral?? You might have worked in the auto industry but my dad has 40 years experience and a graduate of MIT. Not only does he believe in this method but so do his collegues. I have asked more than 10 of his friends about this subject and they all tell me to drive it hard. I am sure to believe 10 credible engineers over you any day.
Yo...this is the Internet. Anybody can claim all the credentials they want. I'll let the quality of my 5,000+ posts speak for themselves.
By the way, wasn't it a MIT grad that failed to use metric units in the coding of a ground software file that caused the Mars Climate Orbiter to crash?
Note that this procedure, for engines of this design, is to create load on the ring lands. Not to "red line the engine as often as possible". He also notes that sustained redlining can introduce break-in debris as it bypasses the filter.
I am not going the same route the other thread is going about "neat video" that you are posting in. Being a post whore doesnt make you a know it all.Listen I am not even going to respond to your posts. After reviewing your 5000 post, I have come to my own conclusions of your "quality" posts so lets just leave it at that.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that with modern engines, there really is no wrong way to break them in.
What i mean by that is, whether you drive it hard fresh from the dealer, or drive it like a little old lady, the engine will be just fine. So there can be all the evidence in the world for various methods, but the only time the difference would be seen is very late in the life of the vehicle. Just my .02, with no real evidence to back it up.
Oh yeah, i disagree with your description of 427z06 and his post count. He seems to really know his stuff darn well to me and doesn't post nonsense or anything to up his post count.
But you, sir on the other hand.. well i'm not going to go there since i already got banned for it once.
What i mean by that is, whether you drive it hard fresh from the dealer, or drive it like a little old lady, the engine will be just fine. So there can be all the evidence in the world for various methods, but the only time the difference would be seen is very late in the life of the vehicle. Just my .02, with no real evidence to back it up.
Oh yeah, i disagree with your description of 427z06 and his post count. He seems to really know his stuff darn well to me and doesn't post nonsense or anything to up his post count.
But you, sir on the other hand.. well i'm not going to go there since i already got banned for it once.
- Status