Brake decison...advice/suggestions?

[97tbird]

I've decided to replace the front rotors and all 4 pads on my 97 T-bird.

Because the oem Motorcraft/Ford rotors are prone to premature warpage(ALL T-bird owners say so!, and mine too ARE warped, with 94k miles), after much research in T-bird forums, I've decided on:

1)Brembo oem style plain vented rotors($ 44 each at tirerack)

2)pads: undecided: Hawk SPS or Akebono pro ACT ceramic pads for the front(they don't make the rears for my car)ca. $56 for 2 pads, tirerack.com
for the rear I'll get some cheaper ones.

but, what do you guys think of these products? any experience with them?
ALSO: is it a myth or true that Ceramic pads ruin rotors more than semi-metallic/other pads?

some interesting reading here about ceramic/akebono pads:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf30322.htm

Thanks in advance for any comments...

 

[outrun]

A) Ceramic Pads on your application will likely your rotors IMO. There is a good chance it will produce heat spots (charred-warped areas) on the rotors.

Stay with semi-metallic.

B) Hawk's HP Ferro-Carbon Street pads are worth there weight in gold...again IMO. Easy on rotors, good performance feel (esp on emergency stops), long life and low dust.

C) For your rotors? Call Raybestos and find out the part numbers for there Severe Duty and Super Stop rotor line.

Police and Fleet uses the Severe Duty Line.

Also try calling Wagner, I think they make an upgraded rotor for your application

D) Finally, it may take a few days but my best recommendation for a Warp prone application is to get a set of Cryogenically (liquid nitrogen treated) rotors.

This will all but elminate the problem.

www.stopyoucold.com

There are many companies in addition that will treat your rotors.



[ April 25, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Hi,

I had an exceptional experience with Raybestos rotors and Spectra Plus (semi-metallic) brake pads made by Ferodo for our Kia Sportage. I was surprised that there was no dust with Spectra Plus whatsoever for a month (front wheels used to be covered in dust in 3 days with older pads). Even after that there was no visible brake material residue, just some road dirt. I suppose Brembo makes at least as good (probably even better) rotors than Raybestos. I bought pads at Parts+ store for less than $36.00. Rotors were rather expensive at $53.00 (cheapest I could find) a piece at Kragen.

I my personal opinion is that Ceramic pads are much better compared to semi-metallic. However, my experience with Spectra Plus has seriously undermined this assumption of extreme superiority.

I think that 94k miles on your rotors is a very good mileage and you probably shouldn't be complaining. Akebono would be my choice over Hawk if you want longer life. Although, I've never tried them (I intend to, very soon) they seem like a decent high quality pads.

It seems like you're on the right track.

Hope this helps,

 

[ChrisW]

I have Akebono ProACT pads on my mothers '97 accord and Brembo blank rotors. Zero noise, little dust, nice pedal feel, imo. The rotors are wearing very evenly (ie, no scoring, darkening, glazing, etc) with the ceramic pads.

The Akebono ProACT pads are top quality pads, in my opinion.

Tirerack has pretty comparable prices on pads and brembo rotors, compared to other online retailers. I know ofImportRP for imported cars, but I don't know of any good sites for domestics.

 

[Virtuoso]

Brembo rotors will work just fine for ya.

 

[Hajoca]

For the rotors, I would opt for the heavier rotor, as there is more material to absorb the heat, and then the rotor temperature will be lower, thus lowering the chances of hard spots forming and the uneven cooling that will lead to warping.

I have a Camry that is using the Toyota dealer supplied ceramic pads from Akebono, these work very well, and I am surprised by the dust, it is silvery/white and do not noticably show up on the wheels. It is there though.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Brembo makes excellent product! I would stay away from ceramic pads though! A good semi-matalic/carbon-matalic is much better choice for street use. Ceramics really have to get hot to really notice an improvment in performance. If you are not road raceing or a taxi or police officer I doubt you will see any performance improvment! You might see some improvement in brake dust though.

P.S. Ceramics are usualy noiseier as well under light brakeing!

 

[97tbird]

..now I'm really confused
still undecided on pads...
Ceramic or non-ceramic(semi-metallic)

I think I'll let the "poll" go on...
Many Thanks for all your help/opinions...
Those who're sceptical of ceramic pads: have you had any bad experience with them already (ruined rotors, etc), or is it a theoretical thing, that ceramic is/can be bad on rotors?

Thanks again.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
I would stay away from ceramic pads though! A good semi-matalic/carbon-matalic is much better choice for street use. Ceramics really have to get hot to really notice an improvement in performance. If you are not road racing or a taxi or police officer I doubt you will see any performance improvement! You might see some improvement in brake dust though.

---

John,

I didn't want to say it publicly, but anyways...

I have noticed a number of times that you have provided and insisted on some information which was either not accurate or absolutely incorrect. Before posting some stuff like above quote I suggest that you read into brake material topic a little more. I don't want to offend you, but posting such disinformation is just wrong. What seems also interesting that most of the time you keep on arguing your point even though it might be inaccurate.


For the record:
Good quality semi-metallic brake pads hold up during intensive heat BETTER than ceramic brake pads. Ceramic brake pads provide better cold temperature performance, and as you mentioned correctly less dust, noise, longer lining life, and better rotor contact. After about 300C semi-metallic brake pads have significant advantage over ceramic material. However, during even the fastest city races pad material rarely gets above 200-300C. Semi-metallic material shows significant advantage in track and pure racing use. One of the problems which manufacturers of ceramic material are currently facing is high temperature performance of ceramic brake pads. Well designed semi-metallic pad material is good up to 500-600C.


Regards,

 

[outrun]

Yes, I lost my rotors to ceramic pads.

Not that ceramics are bad.

My oem fitment recommended semi-metallic. I ignored and payed the price. I accept fault, I thought i was upgrade when it was not.

Heat spots ruined otherwise perfectly machinable rotors.

Wagner ThermoQuiet & Raybestos Quiet Stop have a place, only if it the recommended OE replacement.

In your case it is not.

The only upgrade for you would be high quality semi-metallic pads. (EBC, Metal Master, Hawk, Etc)

 

[RH+G]

Ceramics can warp your rotor just as bad as semi-metallics. I have used the hawks and the ACT and can say they are both treat the rotors about the same. Look into some Axiss Ultimate those tend to be easier on rotors than your choices

 

[shortyb]

Just like anything else, there are good pads and not so good pads. Ceramics have come along way in the past few years. Earlier pads did not have the sintering/binder mix as do recent pads. This is why some would "eat" rotors. Newer versions are so good that many manufacturers are specing them for OEM. Akebono makes about 90% of the "import" OEM ceramic pads. One of the main reasons for this is noise. Consumers were complaining about semi-metallics squealing especially when cold. Like Ti_alloy said, ceramics are quiet, reletively low dusting and work well when cold.
Semi-metallics will hold up better for harder use than ceramics, that is why its better for track use.

Hot spotting a rotor generally comes from using the brakes hard and when at a stop, keeping the pads in contact with the rotor. This creates "cemetite", a change in the grain structure of the rotor material at the spot of increased heat (pads left on rotor). This can create an uneven friction coefficient and lead to brake judder. Judder is a harmonic that occurs as a result of uneven deposit of pad material, incompatible pad/rotor materials, mechanical function of the brakes themselves, or may be a poor interface between rotor and hub. It is NOT warpage but often gets confused with it. Judder is a relatively correctable problem, either clean skim the rotor surface, try a different pad, or clean the hub/rotor mounting area. Next time you suspect warpage, check for good clean contact between the rotor and hub then measure radial runout. You may be surprised that there is no "warpage". I'm not saying warpage does not occur, it does. But with castings made better these days, it doesn't happen that often. Obviously if a rotor is machined flat a time or two, it will be more likely for this to happen due to lack of material mass (reduction in heat-sink capacity).

To answer the questions, I have had experience with both Akebonos and Hawks (HPS & HP). I'd say for daily driving you can't go wrong with either the Akebono ceramics or the Hawk HPS. It will come down to preference with things like dust or noise, performance in this application will be similar. If you do lots of track days or seriously hard driving, go with the Hawk HPs. OEM pads for the rear will do fine, or check to see if Akebono has a non-ACT app for you. Check other than TireRack's database, they sometimes don't list everything. I've had good luck with Olympic Auto Parts Akebono listings.

Also like was mentioned, spend the extra $$$ on good rotors. Brembos are very well made so are Bradi (cast in Brembo's foundry). Stay away from the cheaper "offshore" cast rotors. PowerSlots are usually Brembos with their own trademark slot machining process. EBC is making inroads with an excellent rotor too, many domestic applications now.

Good luck, hope this helps.

 

[sbc350gearhead]

I use autospecialties crossdrilled and slotted rotors on my truck, and they work very well. I have used titanium ti pads and Performance friction carbon metallic pads, and they both work very well, but the latter dusted my wheels much worse.

 

[97tbird]

To answer the questions, I have had experience with both Akebonos and Hawks (HPS & HP). I'd say for daily driving you can't go wrong with either the Akebono ceramics or the Hawk HPS. It will come down to preference with things like dust or noise, performance in this application will be similar. If you do lots of track days or seriously hard driving, go with the Hawk HPs. OEM pads for the rear will do fine, or check to see if Akebono has a non-ACT app for you. Check other than TireRack's database, they sometimes don't list everything. I've had good luck with Olympic Auto Parts Akebono listings.

Good luck, hope this helps. [/QB][/QUOTE]
------------------------------------------------


shortyb,

thanks for you very informative/detailed answer. it really did help me.

so I think I can safely assume, given that i don't drive/brake like a maniac (in which case the Hawk pads should be ny choice??), I CAN use the Akebono ACT pads with my Brembo?

My only concerns are safe stops/no noise/rotor "kindness" during "normal" day-to-day driving; I'm not interested in racing/aggressive driving applications.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Titanium alloy, I do not take offense to being corrected. I have limited experince with cermaics but observed what I wrote.
When we tested them the hotter we got them the better they stoped or more to the point they faded less then the oem semi-matillics we were testing. If this is not the norm then thanks for the correction.

I am buy no means a brake "expert" ! I am glad that my semi-matallic recomendation was a good one to bad I made it for all the wrong reasons!!

Cheers!!

 

[shortyb]

97tbird- I think either will work just fine with the Brembo rotors. FWIW, I got about 1/3 more life out of the ceramics than I did with the Hawks. IMHO the Hawks are a touch more aggressive while still maintaining low dust, low noise and "rotor kindness".

JB- We have gone from using ceramics in the Crown Vics to semi-metallics (Performance Friction Carbon-Metallics) at the academy track. The ceramics were not holding up well to the repeated high speed stops and faded badly. Brake temps hover in the 300-400C range using the Raytek right after several hard, high speed stops. We had 2 instances where the ceramic pad material actually chunked out in large pieces resulting in one case of jamming the rotor. That one was fun to watch but the recruit is still pulling seat material out of his rear I'm sure

. Now for use on the street, they all use the OEM pads which some now are ceramics. No problems so far.

 

[JohnBrowning]

IF bonding is a problem why do not they use rivets like the old school days?

I am glad that more people have more experince with the Cermaics!!! From my limited experince I thought that they did well. Obviously our experince was not the norm!

Has anyone tried a brand of pads named "Cobra's"? Heard some guys at work asking about them!