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OVERKILL

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I think you might want to re-read my posting.
I read your post, in its entirety, and addressed it as how it came across.
I specifically stated "Not to say they are bad nowadays, but they now belong to "Sound United LLC" /////// I'll let you guess where the quality stands now".
I was specifically addressing that last bit, which implies a reduction in quality because of the acquisition/merger. If that's not what you meant, you may what to revise your phrasing 🤷‍♂️
It is well known that mergers like this, as you described yourself, usually introduce a lower quality item.
Introducing a more budget-oriented product line or lines does not reduce overall quality, which is how your take reads. It's quite common for brands like these to produce some down-market product lines in order to capitalize on the prestige of the brand and increase sales volume. Porsche now sells SUV's for example, that doesn't make the 911 a lesser car than it was before.
As for your examples, perhaps Fiat/Chrysler should be included in your reply, as well?
What part of FIAT or Chrysler were a premium brand? Are we harking back to the days when Chrysler owned Lamborghini? I used automotive examples that aligned with B&W's positioning and were acquired by larger brands that catered to a broader, typically more down-market, audience.

To perhaps be more clear: Nothing I've seen out of B&W since the acquisition has caused me to reconsider their positioning or perception of producing top-shelf products. Yes, they introduced the 600 and 700-series, but these have been well received and B&W produced lower tier speakers on and off when they were independent, while their flagship lines remained some of the best on the market and that's still the case.

I was disappointed when Paradigm started producing their lower tier speakers in China, but they've also been well reviewed and they continued to produce their higher tier lines here in Canada.
 
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I read your post, in its entirety, and addressed it as how it came across.

I was specifically addressing that last bit, which implies a reduction in quality because of the acquisition/merger. If that's not what you meant, you may what to revise your phrasing 🤷‍♂️

Introducing a more budget-oriented product line or lines does not reduce overall quality, which is how your take reads. It's quite common for brands like these to produce some down-market product lines in order to capitalize on the prestige of the brand and increase sales volume. Porsche now sells SUV's for example, that doesn't make the 911 a lesser car than it was before.

What part of FIAT or Chrysler were a premium brand? Are we harking back to the days when Chrysler owned Lamborghini? I used automotive examples that aligned with B&W's positioning and were acquired by larger brands that catered to a broader, typically more down-market, audience.

To perhaps be more clear: Nothing I've seen out of B&W since the acquisition has caused me to reconsider their positioning or perception of producing top-shelf products. Yes, they introduced the 600 and 700-series, but these have been well received and B&W produced lower tier speakers on and off when they were independent, while their flagship lines remained some of the best on the market and that's still the case.

I was disappointed when Paradigm started producing their lower tier speakers in China, but they've also been well reviewed and they continued to produce their higher tier lines here in Canada.
I understand where you are coming from, however, I typed it to what I thought was plain. How one interprets it, is not on me, as much as it is on the reader.

In my opinion, introducing a more "budget-oriented" version of a product tends to cheapen the entire line. I don't open the hood of a Porsche and expect to find a Fiat 4 cylinder in it, I expect to find a Porsche engine in it, regardless on who owns the name. For the Dodge, I don't expect to see parts used in other Fiat cars, but I have heard many times, even here, that "quality has went down since Fiat bought them out" (for the record, I do not own a dodge, so I really don't personally know if quality is an issue or not). To illustrate my point, while Porsche now makes SUV's, they do not contain anything less than Porsche parts, and are therefore comparable to 911's in quality. Had the Porsche SUV contained Fiat parts, that would be a different story. And that is what I feel has occurred with the products mentioned. B&W has something it never had before, cheaper, made in China speakers that at one time, were never an option. And while they may sound good, They are not up to and sounding as good or better than, the B&W that "made B&W". As an average consumer, If I listen to a set of Chinese speakers from B&W, I will less likely to consider their higher end items as "Higher End". they will simply be more expensive "Cheaper Higher End" items. If you get what I'm trying to say.

I think my point can come across very well as noted in your last sentence, "I was disappointed when Paradigm started producing their lower tier speakers in China". While they still may sound decent, you make it a point to show that their higher end lines are produced outside of china, and a disappointment of those items produced in China. Why, perhaps because they "cheapen the line" as a whole?. And if money were not any issue, chances are you (the average consumer) would avoid a Chinese speaker in favor of one made elsewhere. There seems to always be in the average person, that see's "made in china" , an entire line cheapening themselves to push a product that may not be as quality oriented as the days of past. Just like the average consumer doesn't think highly of Craftsman tools anymore, as most are now made in china, but will seek out USA made ones instead, because they know the line has been 'cheapened", even if the tools are made to the same specs as prior models. This is why I stated: "I'll let you guess where the quality stands now".
 
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Really curious to what the speakers will be driven with sources and if were me I’d focus on a streaming setup first.
 
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The little quad stand mounts de haute qualité fabriqué en Chine, but seem to be worth a listen, regardless.

Drunken Brit blokes aren't all that great at putting things together. I have Seen a few woofers with reversed polarity in
reference studio monitors in the seventies. I would of course gravitate towards manufacture in country of design origin.

A nice pair of used Mission 770 or Freedom 770 or similar should serve BlueOvalFitter well.

1874975-9ebd87d4-original-mission-770.jpg
 
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^^^^ or Pardigms ! I have had these for decades now, I still cant believe it, I just dont know what I would ever replace them with, they are now part of our A/V system. Just awesome.
I THINK, repeat I think they are the Model 3 se which at the time was sort of an entry level speaker with awesome specs and write ups made in Canada! Can take whatever power you can throw at them.
Cant remember the model back then but it was new to the market high current/head room NAD Amplifier one of their first models. Then followed by years later a Oynko Amplifier (grabbing at straws here) 125 true watts into 8 ohms and much higher into 4. Now its just a cheap Yamaha AV receiver powering them and the other center/surrounds.
(your post of the Missions caught my eye because before these I had the Missions (forget model) with the woofer on top and tweeter below the woofer, but that was most of their speakers, think it was Mission 707 http://www.hifi-review.com/images/archive/mission-707_550.jpg
IMG_5836.jpeg

IMG_5837.jpeg
 
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^^^^ or Pardigms ! I have had these for decades now, I still cant believe it, I just dont know what I would ever replace them with, they are now part of our A/V system. Just awesome.
I THINK, repeat I think they are the Model 3 se which at the time was sort of an entry level speaker with awesome specs and write ups made in Canada! Can take whatever power you can throw at them.
Cant remember the model back then but it was new to the market high current/head room NAD Amplifier one of their first models. Then followed by years later a Oynko Amplifier (grabbing at straws here) 125 true watts into 8 ohms and much higher into 4. Now its just a cheap Yamaha AV receiver powering them and the other center/surrounds.
(your post of the Missions caught my eye because before these I had the Missions (forget model) with the woofer on top and tweeter below the woofer, but that was most of their speakers, think it was Mission 707 http://www.hifi-review.com/images/archive/mission-707_550.jpg
I had those Paradigm myself; very musical and pleasing at the macro level. Likely an early product of the CRC
as were Energy, like the C-2 and 22 which are often forgotten stateside.
 
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Now you piqued my curiosity, Can you browse if you don't have an account?
You can browse without an account, but you will not be able to contact the seller.

 
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B&W is high end stuff. If they are in good shape and haven't been altered, I doubt you would be disappointed. But buying things from Ebay can be hit or miss. You can dispute a purchase and they usually favor the buyer though.
 

OVERKILL

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I understand where you are coming from, however, I typed it to what I thought was plain. How one interprets it, is not on me, as much as it is on the reader.

In my opinion, introducing a more "budget-oriented" version of a product tends to cheapen the entire line.
But as I noted, B&W did this in the past, long before the acquisition. They've, on and off, produced "value" lines of speakers, this isn't new. In terms of home audio speakers, the lowest line is the 600-series.
I don't open the hood of a Porsche and expect to find a Fiat 4 cylinder in it, I expect to find a Porsche engine in it, regardless on who owns the name.
What makes you think you are going to see non-B&W parts in them? In the case of speakers, these would be the drivers, which, even in the 600-series are still B&W. The 600-series is also not "new" (having been around since the mid 90's), and, of course the previous versions were made in England:
Screen Shot 2021-11-27 at 12.05.50 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2021-11-27 at 12.07.39 PM.jpg

Both snaps from this 603 teardown video on Youtube:


My understanding is that the drivers, and design, are still from England, as noted in this article:

The drivers are a mix of in-house B&W units: the tweeter is a 25mm Decoupled Double Dome driver, in which the main aluminium diaphragm is reinforced by a ring of the same metal, adding stiffness, while the midrange driver is that woven Continuum Cone, 150mm in diameter and using the company's surroundless FST design. Below that sit a pair of 165mm bass drivers using reinforced paper cones, tuned via a rear-venting 'Flowport'.

But the cabinets are now assembled in China, like with Paradigm's lower end speakers, that's the main change. It's a lot like buying a Cisco 2960 switch that had previously been made in the states but had the production of the chassis and assembly outsourced to China.

Amusingly, if we look at the Porsche Cayenne, it shares a platform, body frame, doors and electronics with both the VW Touareg and the Audio Q7. Genetically, it's not a Porsche. It was also sold with a VW TDI engine in it. Yet this has had no impact on the 911.

Lamborghini is very "Audi" inside since VAG bought them, but they still continue to command ridiculous money.
For the Dodge, I don't expect to see parts used in other Fiat cars, but I have heard many times, even here, that "quality has went down since Fiat bought them out" (for the record, I do not own a dodge, so I really don't personally know if quality is an issue or not).
Quite the opposite. The Fiat acquisition did bring with it some shared platforms (like the Porsche example above), but also dramatically improved interior materials quality, selection and design. The DT platform trucks, designed and introduced under the FCA merger, became the industry benchmark for ride and interior quality.

While the Mercedes merger had brought with it (LX/LC cars) and co-developed some excellent platforms (like the WKII) this was the era of the "tupperware" interiors, 6-mile deep dashboards and generally unremarkable fit and finish. This changed dramatically under FIAT.
To illustrate my point, while Porsche now makes SUV's, they do not contain anything less than Porsche parts, and are therefore comparable to 911's in quality. Had the Porsche SUV contained Fiat parts, that would be a different story.
See above.
And that is what I feel has occurred with the products mentioned. B&W has something it never had before, cheaper, made in China speakers that at one time, were never an option. And while they may sound good, They are not up to and sounding as good or better than, the B&W that "made B&W".
But that's not the reality. While the cabinets and assembly for the down-market 600 series now takes place in China, the components are all B&W, and the 600-series has existed long before the acquisition. In terms of sound, they sound better than the previous 600 series, which is expected since they get hand-me-down components from the upper lines as their foundation and always have.
As an average consumer, If I listen to a set of Chinese speakers from B&W, I will less likely to consider their higher end items as "Higher End". they will simply be more expensive "Cheaper Higher End" items. If you get what I'm trying to say.

I think my point can come across very well as noted in your last sentence, "I was disappointed when Paradigm started producing their lower tier speakers in China". While they still may sound decent, you make it a point to show that their higher end lines are produced outside of china, and a disappointment of those items produced in China. Why, perhaps because they "cheapen the line" as a whole?. And if money were not any issue, chances are you (the average consumer) would avoid a Chinese speaker in favor of one made elsewhere. There seems to always be in the average person, that see's "made in china" , an entire line cheapening themselves to push a product that may not be as quality oriented as the days of past. Just like the average consumer doesn't think highly of Craftsman tools anymore, as most are now made in china, but will seek out USA made ones instead, because they know the line has been 'cheapened", even if the tools are made to the same specs as prior models. This is why I stated: "I'll let you guess where the quality stands now".
I was disappointed that manufacturing jobs moved outside of Canada for Paradigm, just like I am for B&W. Tesla is now building cars in China, as is GM. I don't think it cheapens the product lines (for Paradigm or B&W) but I do think it is a profit-padding exercise that is indicative of a trend in Western companies as a whole, and one that has been going on for a very long time. As has been pointed out here time and time again, China can produce to any level of quality demanded with sufficient QC in place, Cisco demonstrated that long before this happened with B&W, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy with the shift itself, and that's where I stand on the matter.

My Bryston amplifier is made here in Ontario, and they will continue to receive my business because I like their approach. My B&W 802 S3's were made in England and most of my tools are American-made, being a blend of Snap-On and other brands, some of them being US-made Craftsman as well as some German stuff. I try and shop first world when possible because I don't like the idea of supporting slave labour and do like the idea of supporting the gainful employment of the people around me.
 

BlueOvalFitter

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Overpowering is rarely ever an issue. It's underpowering that often damages speakers. People turn up weak amps in search of higher volume, but what they get is distortion that kills speakers.
Tomato, Tumotto........🤷‍♂️
I will make sure that everything is in place. I will also keep an open mind. My mind is always open to suggestions.
;)
 
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Tomato, Tumotto........🤷‍♂️
I will make sure that everything is in place. I will also keep an open mind. My mind is always open to suggestions.
;)
See I could recommend this cheap $750.00 80 watt in 8 ohms integrated amp
https://www.musicdirect.com/integrated-amp/NAD-C-338-Integrated-Amplifier
or this Pass labs A$$ kicking 60 watt in 8 ohms integrated amp for 9k
https://www.passlabs.com/products/int-60/
Budget and goals really matter. Both units I absolutely would run it’s just goals and what you want out of the system.
 
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