Bonehead me

[fdcg27]

Quoting the OM of my old BMW:

Page 90

"Adding fresh engine oil

Adding too much oil serves no useful purpose and may even harm the engine.
Since this excess oil will tend to be burned off within a short time, it may create the impression that oil consumption is higher than normal.
The best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower mark on the dipstick.
However, do not allow the level to fall below the minimum-level mark."

I can tell you from experience that this car burns off the first half quart of a full sump more rapidly than it does the second.
Could be that BMW was onto something.
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Quoting the OM of my old BMW:

Page 90

"Adding fresh engine oil

Adding too much oil serves no useful purpose and may even harm the engine.
Since this excess oil will tend to be burned off within a short time, it may create the impression that oil consumption is higher than normal.
The best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower mark on the dipstick.
However, do not allow the level to fall below the minimum-level mark."

I can tell you from experience that this car burns off the first half quart of a full sump more rapidly than it does the second.
Could be that BMW was onto something.
I personally think that there's no good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. In an engine that requires adds, I plan them to be at about the add level when it's time for a drain.
Unless you're driving an old Saturn or something else with huge oil consumption, anything else defies common sense.


I do not interpret the quote from your OM from your old BMW the same way you do. It says "adding to much oil serves no purpose and may even harm the engine." I would agree with that statement. Too much oil is anything over the safe zone on the dipstick. As I suspected, what they are concerned about is the human "dip sticks" that add a full quart of oil before the level is down to the bottom of the safe zone. They are not concerned about people with common sense who do not do that. There is a good reason to maintain a full sump up to a drain. More oil (within safe limits) is better.

The fact that your old BMW burns off the first half quart than it does the second is not a compelling argument. What it tells me is that there might be something wrong with your car. My newer BMW does not have that problem.

 

[fdcg27]

I guess you missed the part where BMW wrote that the best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower level on the dipstick?
Nothing here to interpret.
BMW is saying that until you get to the add mark, don't add oil.
Since oil level checking is inevitably variable, if you insist on topping up to the full line all of the time, you'll inevitably be overfilling some of the time, hence BMW's injunction against adding oil until the level is alomost down to the add line.

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I guess you missed the part where BMW wrote that the best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower level on the dipstick?
Nothing here to interpret.
BMW is saying that until you get to the add mark, don't add oil.
Since oil level checking is inevitably variable, if you insist on topping up to the full line all of the time, you'll inevitably be overfilling some of the time, hence BMW's injunction against adding oil until the level is alomost down to the add line.


I guess you missed the part where I said that to statement in the OM was aimed at people too stupid to realize that you can add less than a quart of oil to an engine.

Unlike you, I know when to check the oil and how much to add. I have never overfilled a vehicle with oil in my lifetime. Since you have a problem with figuring out how much to add when a car is less than a quart low on oil, then, by all means I suggest you wait until the oil is at or below the add line on the dipstick for your vehicles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I guess you missed the part where BMW wrote that the best procedure is to add fresh oil only when the level has dropped almost to the lower level on the dipstick?
Nothing here to interpret.
BMW is saying that until you get to the add mark, don't add oil.
Since oil level checking is inevitably variable, if you insist on topping up to the full line all of the time, you'll inevitably be overfilling some of the time, hence BMW's injunction against adding oil until the level is alomost down to the add line.


I guess you missed the part where I said that to statement in the OM was aimed at people too stupid to realize that you can add less than a quart of oil to an engine.

Unlike you, I know when to check the oil and how much to add. I have never overfilled a vehicle with oil in my lifetime. Since you have a problem with figuring out how much to add when a car is less than a quart low on oil, then, by all means I suggest you wait until the oil is at or below the add line on the dipstick for your vehicles.


Easy on the insults champ, you aren't following what he's saying.

Dipsticks aren't perfect and the readings you get are going to vary depending on how/where you park amongst other things. My car requires operating temperature and then waiting 15 minutes before checking for example.

Topping up to only the "full" line, if you check the oil again, you might be slightly over the full line, ergo, you are overfilling. Not intentionally, but it happens. So trying to keep it at the full line, without letting it get much below that is a bit of a less than worthwhile endeavour, that's what he's saying. And invariably, if you are constantly doing this, there are occasions, due to the variations in the less than precise instrument of measure, that you are going to slightly overfill.

I let mine go until the oil level warning pops up, which is typically around the 8,000Km mark, as this indicates I'm down exactly 1L. Of course I periodically check in between "just in case" but I don't add until I see the notification.

 

[SilverC6]

Sounds like BMW recommends you not overfill.

That makes sense for a lot of reasons.

Higher consumption from a slight overfill isn't intuitive though.

I call B S.

An extra 1/2 quart in the oil pan wouldn't make any difference in the oil system in any modern auto.

But I personally can't see running for 1/2 or 3/4 of your OCI almost one quart down when you have checked the dipstick and know the oil is low.

 

[SilverSnake]

I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club. I am well aware that dipsticks are not perfect. That is why I validate the dipstick reading on every car I own. When I change the oil for the first time, I add exactly the factory specified amount of oil. I let the vehicle sit overnight and then note the level on the dipstick while the vehicle is in the garage. That reading becomes the baseline for all checks in the future. Before adding any oil between OCIs, I check the oil in exactly the same way that I validated the dipstick level to begin the first time. The last thing I would ever do is wait until an oil level warning notification or light tells me it is time to add oil.

 

[fdcg27]

I guess that you're better informed than BMW's engineers, so I probably should have accepted your opinion on how to check and add oil.
Sorry, my bad!
I very much doubt that you know more than I about maintaining any vehicle, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Your rides, your money, your decision.
Your opinions will have more significance after you've had a few 200K vehicles.
I've had a few and will likely have a few more.

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Sounds like BMW recommends you not overfill.

That makes sense for a lot of reasons.

Higher consumption from a slight overfill isn't intuitive though.

I call B S.

An extra 1/2 quart in the oil pan wouldn't make any difference in the oil system in any modern auto.

But I personally can't see running for 1/2 or 3/4 of your OCI almost one quart down when you have checked the dipstick and know the oil is low.



Amen brother. Careful though. Raising the [censored] flag may be interpreted as an insult to some cult members.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I follow exactly what he is saying - champ. I am guessing that you and fdcg27 belong to the same club.


Guess so eh? Would that be the club that follows the advice of the manufacturer?

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
I am well aware that dipsticks are not perfect.


OK, so then you shouldn't have a problem with what he's saying. The advice dispensed here is for the forum in general, not you.

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
That is why I validate the dipstick reading on every car I own. When I change the oil for the first time, I add exactly the factory specified amount of oil. I let the vehicle sit overnight and then note the level on the dipstick while the vehicle is in the garage. That reading becomes the baseline for all checks in the future. Before adding any oil between OCIs, I check the oil in exactly the same way that I validated the dipstick level to begin the first time. The last thing I would ever do is wait until an oil level warning notification or light tells me it is time to add oil.


The problem with that is that this isn't the factory sanctioned procedure for multiple vehicles including mine. That's cool that you want to do it your way, but that doesn't make it the right way. As I noted, BMW has a 15 minute after full warm check procedure for my car. This isn't the only one that has an odd procedure for obtaining the proper level.

I also have two "kicks" in the pan that require electronic activation with a scan tool to drain all the oil out of the engine.

There's no need to be hostile, it doesn't help the conversation and nothing fdcg27 has said is stupid even if it doesn't align with what you do.

 

[SilverSnake]

All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
All this coming from someone who waits until he get a warning from his car to add oil. Pardon me if I disregard what you say.


LOL! Go right ahead. I'm 100% certain BMW knows more about their cars than you do. Going to be REAL fun for you if you buy another one, as the new ones don't have a dipstick

"Wait until the oil level is just above the lower level before adding oil". Which is exactly when the notification appears in the cluster BTW (I tracked it, and continue to track it, as I check the oil at regular intervals throughout my OCI). You'll note the other qualifiers as well, that the engine needs to be up to temperature, idled for 15 seconds and then you wait a minute before checking. You don't check it cold.

I would love for you to explain, in engineering terms, by virtue of your extensive engineering and tribological knowledge on the subject, as to why incessantly topping up and exposing the dipstick and crankcase to airborne contaminants is beneficial over the manufacturer advised process of waiting until you are down to the lower mark on the dipstick before topping up.

I'm sure the real truth here is that you are simply OCD and that you need to have the oil at that upper level. Just like you need to "zero" your dipstick when you first buy the car. It is a psychological thing and there's nothing wrong with that. But calling other people stupid because they don't follow your process, despite the fact that you have ZERO evidence to prove that your method is somehow superior, is just plain rude and doesn't help anybody on this board.

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with somebody, I disagree with people all the time on here, that's how we have great discussions. But tossing out insults doesn't lead to discussions and it certainly doesn't lend itself to encouraging others to consider your viewpoint.

 

[fdcg27]

Do you have any idea of the sump capacity of an old M5?
I'll give you a clue.
About enough to fill both of your Chrysler products.

 

[SilverSnake]

OK guys. I know when to give up. I surrender. But, I will keep my oil level at the top of the safe zone on my dipsticks until I am no longer able to raise the hood on my vehicles.

 

[53' Stude]

I think I will listen to the "voice" of reason and common sense which is: OVERKILL and fdcg27

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Do you have any idea of the sump capacity of an old M5?
I'll give you a clue.
About enough to fill both of your Chrysler products.


Did not realize the M5s took 14 Qts of oil. Learn something every day.

 

[Dallas69]

I always add when at half qt down.
Not hard to do.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Do you have any idea of the sump capacity of an old M5?
I'll give you a clue.
About enough to fill both of your Chrysler products.


Did not realize the M5s took 14 Qts of oil. Learn something every day.


Well, I was way off on the oil capacity of the M5.
I was thinking that it was dry-sumped like a 911 or an old big-block Benz, which took 10 and 12 qts respectively.
It isn't, so the 2001 M5 takes only seven quarts.

 

[LotI]

Page 261 of my Ford E450 manual "6. Wipe the dipstick clean. Insert the dipstick fully, then remove it again.
• If the oil level is between the lower and upper holes or between the MIN and MAX marks (depending on application), the oil level is acceptable. DO NOT ADD OIL."

Page 295 of my Accord "if it is near or below the lower mark, add engine oil"

Page 444 of a 2014 Camry manual "If the oil level is below or near the low level mark, add engine oil of the same type as that already in the engine."

Some of the more argumentative members of this site may want to re-take a reading comprehension class

 

[SilverSnake]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: SilverSnake
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Do you have any idea of the sump capacity of an old M5?
I'll give you a clue.
About enough to fill both of your Chrysler products.


Did not realize the M5s took 14 Qts of oil. Learn something every day.


Well, I was way off on the oil capacity of the M5.
I was thinking that it was dry-sumped like a 911 or an old big-block Benz, which took 10 and 12 qts respectively.
It isn't, so the 2001 M5 takes only seven quarts.


Seems to be the BMW standard of late. My wife's 328i takes 6.9 Quarts.