BMW Syn. oil awesome?

Messages
39
Location
Atlanta
Does anyone have any specs on BMW's High Performance Synthetic Oil? It only comes in a 5W-30 viscosity (now, used to be 5W-40) and it is made by Castrol. The catch is that it isnt made (not to my knowledge and my local BMW dealer's either) by Castrol N.A. Instead, its made in England by Castrol U.K. specially for BMW. What looks so darn appealling is that at only a 5W-30 viscosity its meets the ACEA A3-B3 standard! Not even Mobil 1's 5W-30, 10W-30, or any other similarly rated oil OTC can do this. And, at my local BMW dealer its only $3.80/qt(usd)! From those i;ve talked t, its claimed to be a real, honest to goodness syn. unlike Syntec. Its formula is similar to Castrol's non-North American 'SLX-0W-30' brand. It too is ACEA A3-B3 rated and touted to be VERY awesome. Any thoughts guys?
 
Messages
22
Location
San Diego
I wouldn't be too sure about the Schaeffer oil meeting ACEA A3. Schaeffers claims that their Micron Moly dino 5W-30 meets ACEA A3-02 also with a HTHS viscosity of only 3.2, and I'm 99.999% convinced that it doesn't. I've emailed them about their claim, but they haven't replied to me.
 
Messages
115
Location
Wisconsin
Take a look at the specs for the new SL/GF-3 5w-30 and 10W-30. Both have an HTHS of 3.5 and as a matter of fact they both meet the more stringent DC 229.3 spec as well....
 
Messages
22
Location
San Diego
I am questioning the specs on all Schaeffer oil products that claim to meet ACEA A3 due to this obvious inconsistency listed below. Look at the specs on Micron Moly #100. Yet the spec sheet clearly claim to meet ACEA A3-02. No Way it does. HTHS of 3.2 doens't make it. If Schaeffers can put this claim on their regular dino oil, why should I believe the spec sheet on the blend? Micron Moly® Engine Oil SAE 5W-30 meets and exceeds the following specifications and manufacturers’ requirements: MIL-46152E, CID A-A-52039B, API Service Classification SL, Energy Conserving, ILSAC GF-3, Ford M2C153-G, General Motors, ACEA A1-02, A2-96 Issue 2, A3-02, A5-02; Daimler Chrysler 229.1, 229.3, MS9767; JASO JIS K2215TD-701 TYPICAL PROPERTIES SAE Grade 5W-30 API Gravity 60°F 30.4 Specific Gravity 60°F .87 Viscosity 40°C Cst (ASTM D-445) 61.00-62.00 Viscosity 100°C Cst (ASTM D-445) 10.00-12.5 Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 159 High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity 302°F/150°C cP (ASTM D-4683) 3.2 Cold Cranking Viscosity @ -30° C, cP (ASTM D-5293) 6,000 Mini Rotary Viscosity – TP1 @ -30°C, cP (ASTM D-4683) 35,000 Scanning Brookfield Gelation Index @-30°F/-22°C 5.8 Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 424°/218° Fire Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 455°/235° Shear Stability (ASTM D-3945 Procedure A) % Viscosity Loss 5 Volatility @ 700° (ASTM D-2887) %Evaporation Loss 5.7 NOACK Volatility (ASTM D-5800) % Evaporation Loss 13.9 Stable Pour Point FTM 7916 Method 203 °F/°C -41.1°/-42° MRV Borderline Pumping Temperature °F/°C (ASTM D-3829) -22°/-30° Sulfated Ash Content % Wt.0.86 Total Base Number (ASTM D-2896)7.1 Copper Strip Corrosion Test1a Foam Test (ASTM D-892) Sequence I0/0 Sequence II0/0 Sequence III0/0 Sequence IV0/0 Packaging: #100 Micron Moly® Engine Oil SAE 5W-30 is available in 55 gallon drums
 
Messages
22
Location
San Diego
BTW, just because I doubt the validity of the spec sheet doesn't mean that I'm bashing the Schaeffers 7000 blend. It seems to be a great oil, based on the oil analysis reports that are listed on this board. However, I do question whether it truly meets the ACEA A3 specs. Back to original topic. It seems that for the price of less than $4 US/qt. the BMW oil may be a good bargain for a full synth. I've remarked previously if anyone could find a oil in the U.S. of xW-30 weight that meet the ACEA A3 specs. Finally there seems to be one. Can someone post the spec sheet data for BMW oil? Is there anyway of finding out why DC 229.3 is more stringent? What are the testing requirements? ACEA specs are widely available, but I haven't been able to find DC specs.
 
Messages
11,006
Location
Canberra ACT Australia
0W40 M1 meets ACEA A3/B3/B4-02, MB 229.3 etc. I note SuperSyn SL version VI down to 185 from TriSyn VI 196, but Viscosity cSt @ 40c up from 71 to 80.3 and cST @ 100c up from 13.6 to 14.4. Dunno if thats good or bad!
 
Messages
2,095
Location
IL
There is an analysis of it in the maxima.org spreadsheet that Don Stevens posted on a '97 supercharged M3 after 6000miles. It looked pretty good! [Cool] Although they didn't post the oxidation or nitration because the Maxima guys normally use Blackstone Labs. But Don Stevens should have those. There is also a clean baseline analysis. How did you find out it was A3? Supposedly Castrol in Europe is much better. And it is a real synthetic. They do have fake synthetic but at least they label it as such over there. [ July 18, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
 
Messages
1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Steve in SD: I am questioning the specs on all Schaeffer oil products that claim to meet ACEA A3 due to this obvious inconsistency listed below. Look at the specs on Micron Moly #100. Yet the spec sheet clearly claim to meet ACEA A3-02. No Way it does. HTHS of 3.2 doens't make it. If Schaeffers can put this claim on their regular dino oil, why should I believe the spec sheet on the blend?
The main reason I'm gonna step in here is when a person can honestly think that schaeffers is mis representing a product by ways of the tech data sheet, I find it to be almost absurd. Where do you find ANY company that gives this much of a comprehensive tech data. Even if it isn't as good as others, they provide you with more info than any other I have ever seen. So to really question it's validity makes me wonder because if they were to hide this, then they could have done like a lot and just omit a lot of info. I will agree that maybe,(not likley) but possible there was a mess up on this one sheet, but I would not even group all of them as a questionable td. This company, having been in business since the 1830's doesn't have to prove anything un-like other younger companies and I don't believe for one moment that there would be any intentional mis representation on any tech data sheet let alone all of them. From what I have seen, it's suppose to meet 2.9 to 3.5 for the A3 which that would fall into that category. So what is the parameters suppose to be 3.5 to what? and where are you finding that to be the case? Evidently you have either newer specs, or a different one. I sent you a private message with larry's # for you to call directly to him so that he himself(chief chemist and tech-data sheet author) can explain in better detail and then would like to hear what he says. Thanks. bob [ July 18, 2002, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 

Chris J.

Thread starter
Messages
39
Location
Atlanta
Hmmmm....if the A3 requirement state greater than 3.5 then the following oil wont make it. However, if it were greater than or equal to 3.5 then it would. Its Castrol Syntec 10W-30. I know many of you may not like it but.....it has a HTHS# of 3.5. This is from the Castrol Corporate Tech data page that I was sent by Castrol. Anyways, the MB(orDC)229.3 is almost exactly like the BMW spec as it provides increased protection (i.e.ACEA A3-B3) AND should be a 5W-30 oil. MB 229.1 called for a high quality oil with longer drain intervals but it (I believe) allowed for lower quality oils (similar to a tiered system like in Europe) but at the cost of an increase in viscosity. Like Castrol Syntec 10W-40, Mobil 1 15W-50, etc... BMW used to use 10W-60 Castrol Formula RS in the M5 and Z8 V8 engines but have now gone to the 5W-30 oils. That from a BMW corporate tech update sheet.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,909
Location
Iowegia - USA
I suspect there should be a > sign in front of it. Most oils today, with a few exceptions, have a High Temperature High Shear of > 3.5 ---------------------- Just because a Group III Oil is labeled SYNTHETIC, dont mean that it stinks! Its just means its been Mislabeled and Misdefined!
 
Messages
2,077
Location
Cordelia, CA
Are we comparing apples and apples here? Given Spec High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity 302°F/150°C cP (ASTM D-4683) 3.2 Requirement: Temperature/High Shear Viscosity 302°F/150°C cP (CEC-L-36-A-97) >3.5 It may have (I assume HAS) passed the required test. I assume the oil company has to prove that it passes specific tests, not just the generic ones.
 
Messages
282
Location
VA
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule: I suspect there should be a > sign in front of it. Most oils today, with a few exceptions, have a High Temperature High Shear of > 3.5
Most 5W30's do not have a a HTHS of 3.5 or higher. Schaeffers full synthetic is the first I ever saw that did. Apparently this BMW oil does as well.
 
Messages
120
Location
Clearwater, FL
Here is the link to the anlysis report on the BMW labeled Castrol 5W30. This is after 6000 Chicago are a miles on a Supercharged M3. http://undergrad.nova.edu/kevin/bmw5w306k.jpg The results look pretty doggone good. I did this test with a Bimmer guy to attempt to 1) find out how good the oil was 2) show him that Amsoil 5W30 was better. He never ran the Amsoil as he heard that Amsoil had moly in it and he refused to run moly in his car!!! (He wouldn't be very popular here). I spoke to Terry Dyson about this when the test was done to attempt to find out if the base oil was group III or Group IV. I did not want to spend the $200 for gas chromatography so it went no further.. I can't figure out how BMW dealers can sell European bottled synthetic oil for $3.80 per quart. They can hardly afford to ship it over for that. Thus I am guessing it is bottled stateside. Their 10W60 Castrol RS is something like $12.00 per qt. That sounds more like a top shelf product to me. Don
 
Messages
22
Location
San Diego
I spoke with Larry Ludwig, chief engineer at Schaeffers this morning. He is very nice and pleasant to talk with. I'm surprised how easily I was able to reach him. To paraphrase the conversation, Mr. Ludwig says the following about Schaeffers and ACEA A3: 1. Schaeffers (micron moly or 7000) does not meet the ACEA A3 HTHS rate GUIDELINE of >3.5. 2. Schaeffers meets all the other ACEA A3 engine test requirements except this HTHS GUIDELINE 3. Even though Schaeffers does not meet the HTHS GUIDELINE, it can still claim ACEA A3 compliance because it meets all of the other engine test requirements. 4. It is expensive to have american oils tested for ACEA standards that are not applicable in the U.S. Therefore, there may be other oils out there that meet ACEA A3, but were not tested due to the cost of testing. This is disturbing to me for a couple of reasons. If HTHS is truly just a guideline, then which other testing parameters are just guidelines as well? Also, it may be faulty to judge an oil quality based on meeting ACEA A3 specs, as they may just be guidelines after all. Therefore, by saying that BMW/Castrol oil meets ACEA A3/B3 doesn't mean much after all. Again, as many others have pointed out previously, you'll need to judge your oil based on your specific application and analysis. I thus retract my statement about BMW oil being a good value.
 
Messages
1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Steve in SD: I am questioning the specs on all Schaeffer oil products that claim to meet ACEA A3 due to this obvious inconsistency listed below. Look at the specs on Micron Moly #100. Yet the spec sheet clearly claim to meet ACEA A3-02. No Way it does. HTHS of 3.2 doens't make it. If Schaeffers can put this claim on their regular dino oil, why should I believe the spec sheet on the blend?
aaaannnnnnnddddd do we now feel better now knowing that you can trust what they are saying on the TD sheets? He tells exactly the what why and how and doesnt' try to cover it up. They gave you exact numbers HTHS and now have given you a very good reason as to why it meets. Can't get much better info than that. This is one of the biggest reasons I went with Schaeffers, honesty and 162+yrs experience, and Dang good oil!.
 
Messages
22
Location
San Diego
Bob, you still misinterpret my posts. Yes, Schaeffers gives the numbers. I didn't doubt the numbers. I doubted whether it met ACEA A3. I still said I'm very disturbed by all of this. Even if Schaeffers can legally claim ACEA A3, to me it is still kind of misleading. If any oil manufacturer claims their oil meets ACEA A3/B3, any reasonable person would look at those specs and think, "OK, this oil has a HTHS of >3.5" Yet Schaeffers dino or blend oil claims ACEA A3, but does not meet this guideline. I don't want to pick on Schaeffers only, because any oil manufacturer might mislead the public in this manner. However, the fact that these kinds of loopholes exist and is used to mislead the public is very sad.
 
Messages
2,480
I've owned my current 1994 BMW and have put on 125k mi.. The synthetic oil BMW used to use was 5W40 they said was made by Valv.. This was good stuff....zero burn-off after a customary 7500mi. oil change interval. However when I tried OTC Valv. Synblend (only 5w30 avail. in Canada), it looked totally spent after only 2k mi....wasn't the same stuff... But, for the past 1.5 yrs., they switched to a 5w30 synth. they say is now made by Castrol. Right, it doesn't smell the same as Syntec. I think it's not quite the same stuff...but, don't think for a second that it's made by Castrol U.K.. That is their 10W60. If you look at the bottle, it's got Euro. labels all the way around....and true...it's $10-12/qt.. The 5w30 is made by Castrol, NJ. Interestingly enough, Syntec smells like "Mr. Clean" or something very detergent-like. Wonder if it cleans as well as it smells.... As far as experience w/ it...I got some initial increase in consumption and it continued to get worse coupled with noticeable sludge in the area immediately under the filler cap. I don't think it's a PAO at all... remember, these hydrocracked oils are fooling us all...
 

Chris J.

Thread starter
Messages
39
Location
Atlanta
okay, ive purchased some BMW syn 5w-30 and looked at it and even smelled of it. i also compared it w/ some castrol syntec 5w-30 and 10w-30 ive got and its very different. the colour of the BMW oil is a VERY dark amber, whereas, both of the Syntec's are a much lighter colour. also, the BMW oil has a different smell from the regular american made Syntec. Although the BMW syn. does have a somehwat 'clean-like' smell similar to regular Syntec, it smells allot more like Mobil 1. Although now I do not believe that the BMW syn. oil is made in England, I do believe that Castrol North America is using the same composition as what is dictated by Castrol International (in England) and BMW have agreed upon. Therefore, it is not the same composition as our Syntec and therefore should not be viewed or judged accordingly. I do intend on doing an oil analysis on it, before I use it and after 3Kmiles of HARD driving. Next, Im going to be using AGIP synthetic, or Motul 8100. Oh, and Castrol doen NOT blend their oil in NJ. That's their headquarters. Their oil is blended in Baton Rouge, LA.-JFYI! [Smile] Have a good day everyone!!! c/j
 
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