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Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
The other issue with hydrogen is that it isn't currently produced in a method that's an improvement in environmental impact. The VRE crowd like to plug wind and solar using electrolysis as a viable method, but that's insane. The reason it is primarily extracted from NG is because it's vastly more efficient.
There's some promise in using UHT nukes to essentially produce it as a waste product, with the primary purpose of the plant being power generation, but that's still got a LONG way to go.
Extraction or reformation is half the battle - but getting it to the end user and ensuring you get all the fill you paid for. I would imagine a fueling station for H2 is similar to a gas station(and it is a gas station literally). But to transport hydrogen currently involves tank cars, unlike gasoline which is easily transported in pipelines. There's more liquid and CNG pipelines but not dedicated pipelines for H2. The last mile will always be trucks. I've seen trucks from Linde or Air Products over at AC Transit's East Oakland yard a few times from the train.
But getting full fill is another story, granted a fuel cell bus carries more H2 than a car but still. This would be an issue if Mirais and Clarities become as plentiful as Prii and Civics.
Quote
Agencies have reported issues in getting a full fill
when the station fill rate is high. After the tank cools, the tank pressure is less than 350 bar.
Agencies report that this can result in the buses running low on fuel before completing scheduled
service. To avoid sending a bus out with less fuel than needed, some agencies top off the fuel
tanks in the morning. This adds labor time and is not optimal for typical transit operation. AC
Transit has reported this issue and has been working with its station and OEM partners on a
solution. The station setpoint has been increased to 380 bar so that the final pressure after
cooling is closer to 350 bar.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/72208.pdf
The other issue with hydrogen is that it isn't currently produced in a method that's an improvement in environmental impact. The VRE crowd like to plug wind and solar using electrolysis as a viable method, but that's insane. The reason it is primarily extracted from NG is because it's vastly more efficient.
There's some promise in using UHT nukes to essentially produce it as a waste product, with the primary purpose of the plant being power generation, but that's still got a LONG way to go.
Extraction or reformation is half the battle - but getting it to the end user and ensuring you get all the fill you paid for. I would imagine a fueling station for H2 is similar to a gas station(and it is a gas station literally). But to transport hydrogen currently involves tank cars, unlike gasoline which is easily transported in pipelines. There's more liquid and CNG pipelines but not dedicated pipelines for H2. The last mile will always be trucks. I've seen trucks from Linde or Air Products over at AC Transit's East Oakland yard a few times from the train.
But getting full fill is another story, granted a fuel cell bus carries more H2 than a car but still. This would be an issue if Mirais and Clarities become as plentiful as Prii and Civics.
Quote
Agencies have reported issues in getting a full fill
when the station fill rate is high. After the tank cools, the tank pressure is less than 350 bar.
Agencies report that this can result in the buses running low on fuel before completing scheduled
service. To avoid sending a bus out with less fuel than needed, some agencies top off the fuel
tanks in the morning. This adds labor time and is not optimal for typical transit operation. AC
Transit has reported this issue and has been working with its station and OEM partners on a
solution. The station setpoint has been increased to 380 bar so that the final pressure after
cooling is closer to 350 bar.
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy19osti/72208.pdf
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
Fair question.
I have a 2 truck one SUV lifestyle. One half ton, one mid-sized truck, and one full-sized SUV
By day I work in the Tv film business selling equipment and by night I'm a partner in a boat manufacturing and fibreglass parts company.
All my vehicles have to tow or carry things, like boats or trailers full of stuff to and from tradeshow and events.
The only tesla that works for me is the 100K Model X and I'm not spending 100K on an SUV with no towing range.
Teslas impending truck or new little SUV MAY work for me. Probably the SUV but I doubt the truck will get it done for me simply because of the hills and towing range I need.
I have several employees in the day job that have teslas and other electrics and I've driven them all
In the case of the Model S I've driven a P85D thousands of miles - " Can I trade you your truck for a week" type stuff.
Heres our level 2 chargers at the office with the leaf guys and a volt plugged in.
UD
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
Fair question.
I have a 2 truck one SUV lifestyle. One half ton, one mid-sized truck, and one full-sized SUV
By day I work in the Tv film business selling equipment and by night I'm a partner in a boat manufacturing and fibreglass parts company.
All my vehicles have to tow or carry things, like boats or trailers full of stuff to and from tradeshow and events.
The only tesla that works for me is the 100K Model X and I'm not spending 100K on an SUV with no towing range.
Teslas impending truck or new little SUV MAY work for me. Probably the SUV but I doubt the truck will get it done for me simply because of the hills and towing range I need.
I have several employees in the day job that have teslas and other electrics and I've driven them all
In the case of the Model S I've driven a P85D thousands of miles - " Can I trade you your truck for a week" type stuff.
Heres our level 2 chargers at the office with the leaf guys and a volt plugged in.
UD
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
Fair question.
I have a 2 truck one SUV lifestyle. One half ton, one mid-sized truck, and one full-sized SUV
By day I work in the Tv film business selling equipment and by night I'm a partner in a boat manufacturing and fibreglass parts company.
All my vehicles have to tow or carry things, like boats or trailers full of stuff to and from tradeshow and events.
The only tesla that works for me is the 100K Model X and I'm not spending 100K on an SUV with no towing range.
Teslas impending truck or new little SUV MAY work for me. Probably the SUV but I doubt the truck will get it done for me simply because of the hills and towing range I need.
I have several employees in the day job that have teslas and other electrics and I've driven them all
In the case of the Model S I've driven a P85D thousands of miles - " Can I trade you your truck for a week" type stuff.
Heres our level 2 charger at the office with the leaf guys and a volt plugged in.
UD
So, basically you answered question why other manufacturers are not chasing Tesla.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
So wait, you own Honda Ridgline but not Tesla? Why?
Fair question.
I have a 2 truck one SUV lifestyle. One half ton, one mid-sized truck, and one full-sized SUV
By day I work in the Tv film business selling equipment and by night I'm a partner in a boat manufacturing and fibreglass parts company.
All my vehicles have to tow or carry things, like boats or trailers full of stuff to and from tradeshow and events.
The only tesla that works for me is the 100K Model X and I'm not spending 100K on an SUV with no towing range.
Teslas impending truck or new little SUV MAY work for me. Probably the SUV but I doubt the truck will get it done for me simply because of the hills and towing range I need.
I have several employees in the day job that have teslas and other electrics and I've driven them all
In the case of the Model S I've driven a P85D thousands of miles - " Can I trade you your truck for a week" type stuff.
Heres our level 2 charger at the office with the leaf guys and a volt plugged in.
UD
So, basically you answered question why other manufacturers are not chasing Tesla.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
I don't see that.
The premium sedan market isn't my market.
Clearly Tesla is putting a whallop on that market segment.
UD
Statistic is like a bikini. Shows a lot, but hides most important parts.
I don't see that.
The premium sedan market isn't my market.
Clearly Tesla is putting a whallop on that market segment.
UD
Statistic is like a bikini. Shows a lot, but hides most important parts.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by UncleDave
I don't see that.
The premium sedan market isn't my market.
Clearly Tesla is putting a whallop on that market segment.
UD
Statistic is like a bikini. Shows a lot, but hides most important parts.
Perhaps, but the data is the data.
Model 3 outsells the entire 3 and 5 series combined in the US.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
I don't see that.
The premium sedan market isn't my market.
Clearly Tesla is putting a whallop on that market segment.
UD
Statistic is like a bikini. Shows a lot, but hides most important parts.
Perhaps, but the data is the data.
Model 3 outsells the entire 3 and 5 series combined in the US.
Actually the model 3 outsold the BMW - 2, 3, 4, AND 5 series. 45-46K cars.
They came within 10K cars of BMW's TOTAL combined sales in the US.
Its the number 10 selling passenger car in the US. Only one other domestic the ford fusion is on the top 10 list and no german cars made it.
My guess is this is a very large % of the reason why herr vorsitzender over there is taking a hike.
UD
They came within 10K cars of BMW's TOTAL combined sales in the US.
Its the number 10 selling passenger car in the US. Only one other domestic the ford fusion is on the top 10 list and no german cars made it.
My guess is this is a very large % of the reason why herr vorsitzender over there is taking a hike.
UD
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
That would make sense. A good example is performing the update at night while plugged in.
Of course they would not update the software when the vehicle is in use, that could be a catastrophe! But, imagine if all of the vehicles were not operational in the morning when the owners want to go to work?
This is the exact reason why I don't allow automatic updates on my computer. I have had updates break my computer such that it took me MANY hours of work to recover from.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
That would make sense. A good example is performing the update at night while plugged in.
Of course they would not update the software when the vehicle is in use, that could be a catastrophe! But, imagine if all of the vehicles were not operational in the morning when the owners want to go to work?
This is the exact reason why I don't allow automatic updates on my computer. I have had updates break my computer such that it took me MANY hours of work to recover from.
Originally Posted by wag123
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
That would make sense. A good example is performing the update at night while plugged in.
Of course they would not update the software when the vehicle is in use, that could be a catastrophe! But, imagine if all of the vehicles were not operational in the morning when the owners want to go to work?
This is the exact reason why I don't allow automatic updates on my computer. I have had updates break my computer such that it took me MANY hours of work to recover from.
How do you update your software then? Or do you?
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by UncleDave
My understanding from guys that own them is you can schedule them.
Dave
That would make sense. A good example is performing the update at night while plugged in.
Of course they would not update the software when the vehicle is in use, that could be a catastrophe! But, imagine if all of the vehicles were not operational in the morning when the owners want to go to work?
This is the exact reason why I don't allow automatic updates on my computer. I have had updates break my computer such that it took me MANY hours of work to recover from.
How do you update your software then? Or do you?
You could drive the car to the dealership and wait there just in case you have a problem - effectively eliminating OTA as a feature.
Do you go to the store when you update your phone in case you have a problem?
I'm not a huge auto-update fan either and I ignore most major updates until I get some feedback.
I can imagine lots of horrific scenarios, like Rosie Odonnell stepping out of the shower and asking me for a towel.
UD
Do you go to the store when you update your phone in case you have a problem?
I'm not a huge auto-update fan either and I ignore most major updates until I get some feedback.
I can imagine lots of horrific scenarios, like Rosie Odonnell stepping out of the shower and asking me for a towel.
UD
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Actually the model 3 outsold the BMW - 2, 3, 4, AND 5 series. 45-46K cars.
They came within 10K cars of BMW's TOTAL combined sales in the US.
Its the number 10 selling passenger car in the US. Only one other domestic the ford fusion is on the top 10 list and no german cars made it.
Umm actually the Ford Fusion (Ford Mondeo) is actually a Ford of Germany design.
Actually the model 3 outsold the BMW - 2, 3, 4, AND 5 series. 45-46K cars.
They came within 10K cars of BMW's TOTAL combined sales in the US.
Its the number 10 selling passenger car in the US. Only one other domestic the ford fusion is on the top 10 list and no german cars made it.
Umm actually the Ford Fusion (Ford Mondeo) is actually a Ford of Germany design.
Originally Posted by UncleDave
You could drive the car to the dealership and wait there just in case you have a problem - effectively eliminating OTA as a feature.
Do you go to the store when you update your phone in case you have a problem?
I'm not a huge auto-update fan either and I ignore most major updates until I get some feedback.
A car is a huge investment and a phone might not be cheap either, but not in the realm of your car. You get a OTA update that bricks it you're stuck where you are unless you have a second car and are at home. I'd block all OTA updates and let the dealer take care of them with a wired connection much more reliable way even if a bit more inconvenient.
You could drive the car to the dealership and wait there just in case you have a problem - effectively eliminating OTA as a feature.
Do you go to the store when you update your phone in case you have a problem?
I'm not a huge auto-update fan either and I ignore most major updates until I get some feedback.
A car is a huge investment and a phone might not be cheap either, but not in the realm of your car. You get a OTA update that bricks it you're stuck where you are unless you have a second car and are at home. I'd block all OTA updates and let the dealer take care of them with a wired connection much more reliable way even if a bit more inconvenient.
I can only say based on my observation of Model 3 owners around me vs the BMW owners around me, why BMW is doing bad:
Both are tech workers with 6 figure income per person (that means at least 200k a couple).
Tesla owners are likely buying it because it is cool, it gets free charging, and it gets carpool lane access. BMW and to a certain extend Mercedes owners buy them because they want the BMW and Mercedes brand and luxury (or whatever they call, they just want it).
They are both not buying it because they are cheap to run like a Corolla or Camry, those frugal cheap skates like me buy Prius or Corolla or Accord or Camry, whatever is good at the moment. Most of them are not buying Tesla or BMW because they are cheap or a good deal, just like most big trucks and SUVs buyers in the mid west are not buying big trucks and SUVs because they are cheap to own.
Almost all of them never drive faster than average traffic speed, they can't even tell which wheel drives are the cars, and they can't tell which direction the engine is oriented, and they don't even know the difference between HP and Torque or how often do you need to rotate your tires.
Now, why do I think BMW and Mercedes are in trouble: they lost their exclusive bragging rights, and they are no longer COOL among the hip crowds (just like big domestic SUVs and trucks and Mustang and Corvettes are NOT COOL around here). They lose that cool bragging rights and they are now just a Lexus, and they charge way more than a Lexus, are "relatively speaking in at least the public opinions" way less reliable than a Lexus. Sure Tesla are not reliable or cheap to fix, but at least they are COOL, and most work places let you charge for free.
The CEO got fired because he has no answer to the trend toward EV, in the ultimate driving machine department. i3 is a joke that should have never gotten a BMW badge.
Both are tech workers with 6 figure income per person (that means at least 200k a couple).
Tesla owners are likely buying it because it is cool, it gets free charging, and it gets carpool lane access. BMW and to a certain extend Mercedes owners buy them because they want the BMW and Mercedes brand and luxury (or whatever they call, they just want it).
They are both not buying it because they are cheap to run like a Corolla or Camry, those frugal cheap skates like me buy Prius or Corolla or Accord or Camry, whatever is good at the moment. Most of them are not buying Tesla or BMW because they are cheap or a good deal, just like most big trucks and SUVs buyers in the mid west are not buying big trucks and SUVs because they are cheap to own.
Almost all of them never drive faster than average traffic speed, they can't even tell which wheel drives are the cars, and they can't tell which direction the engine is oriented, and they don't even know the difference between HP and Torque or how often do you need to rotate your tires.
Now, why do I think BMW and Mercedes are in trouble: they lost their exclusive bragging rights, and they are no longer COOL among the hip crowds (just like big domestic SUVs and trucks and Mustang and Corvettes are NOT COOL around here). They lose that cool bragging rights and they are now just a Lexus, and they charge way more than a Lexus, are "relatively speaking in at least the public opinions" way less reliable than a Lexus. Sure Tesla are not reliable or cheap to fix, but at least they are COOL, and most work places let you charge for free.
The CEO got fired because he has no answer to the trend toward EV, in the ultimate driving machine department. i3 is a joke that should have never gotten a BMW badge.
Originally Posted by AC1DD
A car is a huge investment and a phone might not be cheap either, but not in the realm of your car. You get a OTA update that bricks it you're stuck where you are unless you have a second car and are at home. I'd block all OTA updates and let the dealer take care of them with a wired connection much more reliable way even if a bit more inconvenient.
Correctly implemented OTA update should never brick your car, your phone, your computer, your anything. You may get hacked because they didn't do the security right, but they should never brick your car.
I know the guy working on that part of the design there, and many other companies. I've also done update as a living before and had a related patent (although it is a bogus one that my employer mandate on a regular basis for work performance reason).
Typically you have multiple copies, you update one at a time, only when everything is in good condition (good network, good charge, system is idling or not running, not another update in progress, you are updating in the correct order, nothing is corrupted), you check your download to make sure they are good, you update one copy of your many copies, you boot up and check if everything works, if fail to boot one copy, you boot into one of your other copies and delete what you just downloaded, and try again.
Of course you can have security flaw, but you can also have security flaw by having people come to your car with a slim jim and swap out your ECU in a normal car, or put a bomb in it. Anything electronics on a car can die, but firmware update on a car is pretty straight forward, the worst can be "unable to update, please call customer service". It is much harder to put another $1 chip in a $30 router for redundancy but another $5 chip for redundancy is very affordable for a $50k car.
A car is a huge investment and a phone might not be cheap either, but not in the realm of your car. You get a OTA update that bricks it you're stuck where you are unless you have a second car and are at home. I'd block all OTA updates and let the dealer take care of them with a wired connection much more reliable way even if a bit more inconvenient.
Correctly implemented OTA update should never brick your car, your phone, your computer, your anything. You may get hacked because they didn't do the security right, but they should never brick your car.
I know the guy working on that part of the design there, and many other companies. I've also done update as a living before and had a related patent (although it is a bogus one that my employer mandate on a regular basis for work performance reason).
Typically you have multiple copies, you update one at a time, only when everything is in good condition (good network, good charge, system is idling or not running, not another update in progress, you are updating in the correct order, nothing is corrupted), you check your download to make sure they are good, you update one copy of your many copies, you boot up and check if everything works, if fail to boot one copy, you boot into one of your other copies and delete what you just downloaded, and try again.
Of course you can have security flaw, but you can also have security flaw by having people come to your car with a slim jim and swap out your ECU in a normal car, or put a bomb in it. Anything electronics on a car can die, but firmware update on a car is pretty straight forward, the worst can be "unable to update, please call customer service". It is much harder to put another $1 chip in a $30 router for redundancy but another $5 chip for redundancy is very affordable for a $50k car.
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