BMW 335 Factory Fill Test with 19k miles..Not good

[windnsea00]

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I have a 97 M3 and know a lot BMW owners, including track driven cars.

Anything over 7500 mi on synthetic is crazy. The oil system (surprisingly) is not that good in BMWs. They don't use oil galleys in the oil. Take one for a ride and corner hard. It will start valve clanging, because the oil is not reaching the hydraluic lifters. The oil also simply gets dirty.

BMW oil in the US is Valvoline SynPower. In Europe, it is rebranded Castrol Syntec.

These cars were intended to be driven hard and corner hard, but the engines are not suitable for this. You need an aftermarket oil pan and using the correct viscosity which is 5W-40 or 10W-60 in most engines for it to last.

Most owners don't get it and assume German engineering will take care of it. It won't.

Don't even waste your time on a used BMW with long dealer oil changes. 100,000 mi car and it's spent if you want to have any fun with it

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That's why people fill their M50/S50/M52/S52, etc. engines with a 1/2-1 quart overfull when tracking. The S54 did use a semi-dry sump and now the S85 (V10) uses a full dry sump setup.

BMW 5w30 oil from the dealership is Castrol TXT 5w30, not Valvoline. 10w60 is overkill for anything other than the S54/S62/S85.

 

[windnsea00]

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What a B.S. comment. Got any data to back that up?

Craig.

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Plus Bimmers aren't half the cars they used to be .Bimmers and Mercedes are about the only cars mfgs. that quality has gone down instead of improving or staying somewhat the course.

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I'm a BMW nut myself but that isn't B.S. The E36 3-series was deemed as BMW's first recyclable car...they really were able to take advantage of CAD to cut their costs.

That's why the E36 and early E46's have had issues with subframe tearing which was never seen on the "tough" built cars from back in the day.

BMW needed to cut their costs greatly back in the early 90's so they could compete with the Japanese and their skill of low production costs. Also BMW is looking to sell 2+ million vehicles a year worldwide by the end of this decade...so every penny counts.

While I still believe their engine and suspension design is top notch, there is cost cutting prevalent.

 

[BillionPa]

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the recommended OCI for BMW brand oil is 7500 miles in a naturally aspirated engine seeing "Normal" driving habits.

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Maybe by you, but BMW suggests follow the service indicator or one-year, whichever comes first.

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yes by me, and by all the independant BMW mechanics i know, and also by the mechanics i know at the local dealership.

you take whatever the factory recommendation is and slice it in half, and thats oh much you can run it till the sludge protection wears out.

kind of like ink cartridges, take whatever the manufacturer page rating is and slice it in half, and thats what you are really gonna get till the ink runs out

 

[BillionPa]

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What a B.S. comment. Got any data to back that up?

Craig.

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Plus Bimmers aren't half the cars they used to be .Bimmers and Mercedes are about the only cars mfgs. that quality has gone down instead of improving or staying somewhat the course.

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you take an E60 M5 to the track and the diff will explode before you get to the last lap.

they throw all sorts of electronic and hydraulic assisted equipment in there to make them handle better (they kind of need to since they keep increasing the weight), but the reliability goes down exponentially.

you take an E34 (1992) M5 to the track, run it to the limit, and drive home in the #@$%! thing! (after a new set of tires)

the balance of grace, simplicity, reliability, and raw power of the old days just isnt there anymore.

performance build E30 M3s (mid 80s) will outhandle ALL the latest M3s, even the CSL. of course it doesnt have all that crazy electrogadetdry, or even a cd player, but it WILL win the race, and the odds of it having any kind of problem are extremely low.

after i got my 5 series i wanted an M3 for the better handling, and started looking at what was available...... i kept going back from the E46, to the E36, then finally to the E30, as each step seemed to actually gain positives. they DO NOT make em like they used to.

i remember a story of one of the new 7 series locking the driver inside and killing the engine. he couldnt get out, they had to bust out the window with an axe. that just wouldnt happen in an E32 7 series (early 90s) or even an E38 (late 90s)

the shift has gone to the luxury of the interior, and to safety features, and to emissions standards, with performance and reliability being secondary. and its been that way for over 10 years, dont expect BMW to change any time soon.

 

[windnsea00]

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What a B.S. comment. Got any data to back that up?

Craig.

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Plus Bimmers aren't half the cars they used to be .Bimmers and Mercedes are about the only cars mfgs. that quality has gone down instead of improving or staying somewhat the course.

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you take an E60 M5 to the track and the diff will explode before you get to the last lap.

they throw all sorts of electronic and hydraulic assisted equipment in there to make them handle better (they kind of need to since they keep increasing the weight), but the reliability goes down exponentially.

you take an E34 (1992) M5 to the track, run it to the limit, and drive home in the #@$%! thing! (after a new set of tires)

the balance of grace, simplicity, reliability, and raw power of the old days just isnt there anymore.

performance build E30 M3s (mid 80s) will outhandle ALL the latest M3s, even the CSL. of course it doesnt have all that crazy electrogadetdry, or even a cd player, but it WILL win the race, and the odds of it having any kind of problem are extremely low.

after i got my 5 series i wanted an M3 for the better handling, and started looking at what was available...... i kept going back from the E46, to the E36, then finally to the E30, as each step seemed to actually gain positives. they DO NOT make em like they used to.

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Outhandle is all relative. The E30 M3 was a great car and I would like to have a restored one in the future but suspension design only gets better in time. The rear semi-trailing design in the E30 worked but it's less advance than the multilink setup found in the E36 and E46.

If I was on a small and tight track, the E30 M3 would be a fun choice. However, if I was on the Nurburgring the E46 M3 CSL would hands down be a much better machine as it's more capable, can utilize its bigger size and weight to hold the road better, more advanced suspension design can deal with what the road has to throw at it, etc.

BMW has always been about day to day user friendliness but also capable on the track...I still believe to this day they are the best at it.

 

[Turbodriven]

I do think the newer BM's are a little let "sturdy" but that doesn't bother me. I think the dynamic's of the car are hard to beat in class and the chassis and suspension are top of the pack. I drove most of the competition before we got the E90 and was unbias about the whole selection (in fact the girlfriend wanted an Audi) and the BM won hands down, only being beaten by the Audi wrt interior.

So I like BMW. The one I want is the new E90 M3...

BillionPA- I understand your reasoning, but saying the E30 M3 is a better performance car than the CSL...? Man that CSL is a stonker of note...have you driven one? You will need a GT3 to stay with it on track.

 

[Rico567]

"Lonnie" gives a very astute analysis of the situation. On a forum like this, there is a tendency to grant to the general car-buying public a knowledge or concern about the mechanics of their cars that simply doesn't exist. Most people don't know whether the engine is filled with oil or hamsters running in cages.....and 20K OCIs are fine with them, as long as they have no trouble while they own the vehicle.

 

[Jett Rink]

My 1989 325i E30 runs like a champ. I love driving it, but 99% of the people on the road would not. No cupholders, no CD player, no airbag. And considering the horsepower wars of today, it is underpowered. The only real problems is in the interior where the sport seats could really do with a visit to an upholstery shop. I'll get to that someday.

Engine and transmission seem rock solid and capable of some serious high mileage. It is at about 160,000 miles but nowhere near done. For what it is worth I change the oil every 5,000 miles on it, with plain old dino 15w-40 HDEO.

I don't have any firsthand ownership experience with the newer BMWs, but they certainly seem to have a strong motor. I would sample the oil every 5,000 miles (whichever oil you choose) until I had a good feel for how long the oil is holding up. If it confirmed the OLM, after that I would trust the OLM.

 

[Matt89]

People who sell oil analysis services for a living have a vested interest in keeping their customers obsessed with wear metals, viscosity changes etc etc.

What no one has done (or will probably ever do) is correlate an analysis report like this one with an engine not providing a reasonable service life (in the US, the average service life of an auto is 14yrs). Until they do I take these analysis reports/interpretation with a big grain of salt.

 

[benjamming]

Matt89,

Remember though that the real value of an UOA is for trending, not what we see much of here on BITOG.

 

[double vanos]

I guess I can understand why a 15k OCI might be OK, but I cannot figure out why BMW has these lifetime fluids in the driveline - the service bays are littered with transmissions and differentials that have died needlessly through outright neglect.

There is only one component on modern cars that is truly maintenance free..and that is the air conditioning compressor.

My .02 worth is this..my 330ci is closing in on 100k miles and because of 5k OCI'S and 15 k driveline service, the car drives better than new - that old cliché about a car "just getting broken in" at 100k is not just a saying, in my case it's a fact.

As far as BMW quality goes, any car that gets the living daylights driven out of it is going to take extra maintenance.

And when you get right down to it, what I have said applies to any car on the road today...if you don't want it to last a long time, don't maintain it. Cheers!

 

[Auto-Union]

Isn't the Double Vanos system OP actuated? Seems like oil sludge would be a priority.

 

[double vanos]

On roadflycom there have been instances of vanos systems failures and although they are no too prevalent, they are none the less there.

The vanos system is not a terribly complex thing so in my feeble mind I attribute some of the failures to 15k oil changes. I have heard that the use of oil that is far out of range from BMW specs (they recommend 5w30, would 5w50 cause a problem?)has caused vanos noise or malfunction - the outright failure is hard to attribute to any solid one thing.

So far mine has been fine, currently at 95k. But answer your question: sludge should cause vanos problems - I'd be surprized if it didn't. Cheers!

 

[windnsea00]

The single Vanos eventually wears out and needs to be replaced. It will make more noise, cause worse fuel mileage and less power. I've seen a few been replaced, it takes some beforehand knowledge.

We replaced the Vanos unit in our `93 325is at 144.7k miles...it was making the typical noise they do when they start going out and you could feel the engagement was noticeably smoother with the new unit in.

 

[Turbodriven]

Vanos as on the M3's is solenoid operated unlike the Vtec and VVTi systems. It is pretty reliable, but has been known to fail…like anything mechanical. Oil has little to do with the failures though (in the VANOS system).
And if you take any road car to serious track days you should invest in a good baffle sump and appropriate pickup….cars generally are designed for road driving where you will not be cornering at high G with slicks on…otherwise there would be Carton Towel on the windows to catch the passengers gob.

 

[Terry]

The (first time), valued testing customer has agreed to remove the public posting of my proprietary commentary and line by line elemental analysis. Note that in our normal interpretation the initial report is not the final commentary or conclusion.

I personally take the time the customer is willing to expend on interative interpretation because just the raw data is not enough, observation and experience counts too.

Matt, I am not in the business of living off "consumer" level testing, it just is NOT profitable enough. This report is a very small example of what I do for entities that pay very well for professional consulting. Consider what little you have seen of my work on BITOG or at BIMMERFEST or wherever as a gift to the public.

I want customers for life, not $10 a pop from online officianados who want hours of my time on the cheap. If I am not providing value to a customer they usually fire me!

For those that are dissapointed in what they read, well consider that I DO NOT ever POST everything I know about a lubricant, fuel, or engine, machine regimen or setup.

A recent exposure and rip off of my services was done overseas by X-REV oil company in Singapore, thank goodness even their copyright laws are respected, enforced by caneing.

I am aware of the risk but continue to trust my consumer level customers to understand that if they want cutting edge analysis (the most important part....what the data means) must be kept between us.

Thanks to those who alerted me of the posting at bimmerfest.

Terry

 

[buster]

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enforced by caneing

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True, but it's clean and crime free.

Al is what stands out to me. It's not a good report, but I've seen worse. That Al is very high. I would NEVER run any oil past 15k miles. It's just not worth it to me.

The BMW 5w-30 Synthetic is actually a pretty robust oil. Not sure a Mobil/Amsoil would have done any better.

 

[BrianWC]

All this talk about good ol' robust BMWs of yore makes me want to go buy another e21. That car took all my adolescent abuse with aplomb. Including accidentally sticking the accelerator pedal to the floor in neutral for about 15-20 cheek-squeezing seconds....

Yes Virginia, an M10 engine will tach 8k rpms without blowing up.......

BTW, if I owned a 335i, I think I would pay some little German man to change my oil once a week or so....