Blown Amsoil engine; they stepped up!

[cronk]

I saw a similar situation when I worked at a Nissan dealership.
Guy had a Pathfinder with a 3.5 that took a tiny filter.
He got conventional oil and left it in longer than he should have.
Switched to Amsoil at 40k and went right for 10k intervals.
Must have loosened up some sludge and overloaded the filter.
Brought it in because the oil pressure light kept coming on.
Filter was full of sludge, and I think it had been bypassing for a while, oil looked like molasses.
We changed his oil and filter and his pressure improved, but he did permanent damage to the engine. It burns a good amount of oil, and is noisy and makes all kinds of death rattles.
I certainly wouldnt blame it on Amsoil, but I don't believe in these 10 or 12k oil change intervals either. 7k would be my limit in ideal conditions!

 

[Pablo]

10-12K intervals are fine for most engines. In fact longer OCI's are quite easy for many engines - especially USA engines (imagine that).

For these small filter engines, 5K severe. 7.5K normal. Especially sludgers.

I have to think if something like a large EaO96 were used we would not be having this conversation. In fact that may be the lesson learned, small oil filter, small oil volume - no super long OCI. Relocate the filter if necessary, super size it - add oil volume, longer OCI possible.

 

[demarpaint]

I agree Pablo, it is a lesson well learned, but in the end the guy with the blown engine is the guy who suffers. Being without a car for 4 months is not picnic either. I've said it before extended drains are not for everyone, and should be eased into. That is something that Amsoil should really explain to their customers. They run the risk of possibly damaging their engines doing extended drains in many applications. In the two mentioned cases I would not want to be the crash dummy. The problem with explaining this to customers is it hurts sales. Tough spot to be in.

Someone who has 50,000 miles on an engine might have more junk in his engine than he wants to believe. It is possible as you mentioned in your "sludge theory", that a good engine with a large filter can be ruined also, we just don't know for 100%. Perhaps a mandatory Amsoil flush, and a few OCI's working up to the extended drain would be a good idea before diving into murky waters. Maybe they could sell a first time user an "Extended drain prep kit", along with instructions to ease safely into extended drains. I'll continue to follow the OM for now, the risk of the extended drain doesn't equal or exceed the reward in my case. JMO

 

[Gary Allan]

Easing into an extended drain would not be the way to market a line of lubricants that are exclusively designed for extended drains. Any properly spec'd oil will work in your car. It's what gives Amsoil distinction.

Amsoil just found the hole in their testing.

Toyota's don't surprise me. They had problems with anything but good maintenance. When something like this happens to a regular John Q. Consumer using Jiffylube ..what happens? He eats it. If he's an Amsoil customer, with Amsoil being the vendor/marketer/producer of the products involved, Amsoil eats it.

Honda is the one that surprised me. It took a long time for enough customers to slip through the cracks to justify the change.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Amsoil honors their warranty. The guy replaced the engine with an engine of his choice. Amsoil paid for it. Not a lot of gripe room there.

But in reality - looking at those pictures - methinks some sludge was already on site. Amsoil probably could have even proved it, but to what end?

I still don't understand why the by-pass was insufficient unless the engine had sludge, of the filter is just too darn small. I'm sticking with the sludge theory.



Exactly.He selected the repair option and Amsoil paid the bill.At over 4 grand i think if he had a problem its more with the guy doing the repair,that kind of money is rebuilt engine territory.

 

[demarpaint]

What about the guy that reads up on Amsoil, has a HM car and wants to dive into the extended drain game? It would be a shame for both Amsoil, and the new customer if he wrecks an engine. If in fact Amsoil is letting sludge break free and clogging filters. My point is a word of caution might save grief. But then there's the potential to scare the customer and the loss of the sale. Tough call.

If the customer orders online Amsoil is going to sell him the oil regardless. Again JMO

 

[Sayjac]

Especially considering the fact that the owner's 4.0L 1GRFE is not a known sludger engine, even if Amsoil could prove that it was sludge, is that meant to imply it wasn't the TSB Amsoil filter used and oil OCI recommendations that caused the sludge?

And if over time the build up of sludge caused by following those recommendations negated any possible bypass ability of the TSB Amsoil spec'd filter, does that mean Amsoil would hold no responsibilty for the oil starvation that took place in said engine?

Just as I said what what Amsoil did in this case seemed reasonable given the owners response, for Amsoil to have tried to prove it was sludge would have been bad business especially given the owners apparent long term Amsoil relationship. To me, even if Amsoil could prove it was from sludge doesn't automatically eliminate them from responsibility in this matter. Using the Amsoil spec'd filter as recommended being a primary consideration.

 

[demarpaint]

Again the guy with the HM car, or even a car with 50K miles that makes the change, he's taking a lot of risk diving into the extended drain waters. I have a feeling more and more of these cases are going to pop up, and getting paid for damages will become even harder. I still think educating customers and having them ease into it is the way to go. IIRC the original Bob, of Bitog suggested that as well? Smart move if you ask me.

 

[Pablo]

Really a reason to buy Amsoil from a knowledgeable Amsoil dealer who has ALWAYS recommended easing into extended drains. I don't find it a tough sell at all using this model. In fact, I've never had a customer who didn't want to listen.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Really a reason to buy Amsoil from a knowledgeable Amsoil dealer who has ALWAYS recommended easing into extended drains. I don't find it a tough sell at all using this model. In fact, I've never had a customer who didn't want to listen.


That is exactly how I'd sell it.

Explain the benefits of the product, then suggest the customer eases into the extended drains. That would give Amsoil a chance to do some cleaning first, so there are no problems later on.

 

[blue94]

His post said that he's been "religiously using Amsoil" for years with invoices of "over $1000 per year". It would be a shame if he had sludge.

 

[Sayjac]

That sounds all well and good, but if it's up to each individual amsoil dealer to do so, then something needs to change from corporate advertising. Either that or each dealer needs to be trained that the corporate recommendation is only a guideline. And, be required to give such information before sale.

How is the average amsoil consumer including said owner, supposed to know if his dealer is a "knowledgeable dealer" or not? Based on my reading, the owner followed the corporate recommendation(s) and his engine failed. I'm not going to point the finger at the owner in this incident for not knowing his dealer was not knowledgable. The irony here is, isn't that one of the reasons why one buys from amsoil, and pays a premium to average store brand synthetic and oil filters?

Bottom line, the owner followed the recommendation he had access to at the time, and his engine failed. Amsoil eventually paid for the replacement as, at a minimum they should have. That about covers this situation as I see it.

 

[demarpaint]

sayjac- I agree completely! My beef is for under $50 anyone can sell Amsoil, that doesn't mean they know the product, but they can sell it. They read a little, learn a little, and become dangerous IMO.

Now before I get attacked from all angles that is not the case with the Bitog Amsoil dealers. My buddy decided to sell it, he knows NOTHING! But wants to make some extra cash. Imagine some clueless people buying extended drain oil and filters from him and wrecking their engines! The pitch would be, "hey this oil is good for 1 year or 35,000 miles". Great stuff! No thanks! There is a lot more to it than that. Most people don't want to ease into anything, that can cost sales, Amsoil and their dealers want sales. I know a lot of people in sales that tell customers exactly what they want to hear, then worry if there is a problem.

Proper training is the key, and Amsoil is not properly training anyone, those who want to learn can learn, those who don't can still sell product.

Back to the original topic, Amsoil can do a little more to contact customers than rely on their TSB's. Had the guy with the blown engine contacted an Attorney Amsoil would have been putting a new engine in the vehicle.

I scanned the thread on the other site, but Blue94 brings up a good point. This guy is not new to Amsoil and spending $1000/year on it, then sludge shouldn't have been an issue. Maybe that's why Amsoil stood down on the sludge issue.

 

[Ken2]

As soon as Amsoil said that their filter was not suitable for that engine, they put their liability-neck into the noose. If none of those engines had damage, great. If any got damaged with that filter, pay up. It is too bad that it took 4 months for that claim to settle (and I know no details). The check should have gone out in 4 days.

About Amsoil's oil warranty...read it. Read all the fine print.
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1363.pdf
I challenge anyone to describe how the average customer--or above average customer--will be able to file a claim and provide evidence of any damage that meets all the terms of the warranty. Who's going to save an eight ounce sample of the oil? The first thing any mechanic is going to do is to drain the oil and take the engine apart to get a look at things. Who's going to save the batch number of the Amsoil oil? Who's going to prove that the damage resulted directly from the use of Amsoil lubricants?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Again the guy with the HM car, or even a car with 50K miles that makes the change, he's taking a lot of risk diving into the extended drain waters.


Yeah, if it's a beater. I can't think of one marginal engine where the consumer would seek out Amsoil unless they were thinking of pulling a scam. The type you're describing would be more likely to buy cheap oil and add motor honey, not spend money on a top tier synthetic that the would have to (most likely) top up with more expensive oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Again the guy with the HM car, or even a car with 50K miles that makes the change, he's taking a lot of risk diving into the extended drain waters.


Yeah, if it's a beater. I can't think of one marginal engine where the consumer would seek out Amsoil unless they were thinking of pulling a scam. The type you're describing would be more likely to buy cheap oil and add motor honey, not spend money on a top tier synthetic that the would have to (most likely) top up with more expensive oil.


Scam that's a good one, I guess there are people who think along those lines. OTOH there are people that do lots of driving even with older cars that aren't into changing oil 3-5 times a year. My friend that wants to sell Amsoil drives about 30,000 miles a year, he just bought a pick up with 100K miles on the clock. He better think long and hard, before doing an extended drain right out of the gate with Amsoil.

 

[Pablo]

First of all, I'm not exactly sure what the oil warranty has to do with the situation. The filter failed and Amsoil covered the claim with their filter warranty. But since you pulled that one out, please post 3 other motor oil company's warranties. I and others will be waiting.

You are directly saying (in a thread where Amsoil covered a warranty claim) that Amsoil has made the bar so high that they will never have to pay a claim. Poppycock. You have no real proof. Amsoil and any other oil company will need a sample of the used oil. I probably don't need explain why, but if you want me to, let me know.

Here's the filter warranty: AMSOIL Warranty - Filters LINK

We all need to slow down a bit and step back. I think the guy was running 10K intervals.....but some are jumping to interesting conclusions.

Originally Posted By: Frenchie
Yes I bought it used it had 120K Km's on it at the time. It Blew up at 190K and I had been using the EA057 and 0w30 Signature series from the start...


The rig is a 2003. SSO came out in, what 2005 or so? EaO's weren't around then. But that's not the point. He bought it used, what kind of oil/maintaining was done before that?

Plus the replacement engine Amsoil paid for had 81K Km's. Not the bad deal some are claiming, considering the blown engine.

I have begun my probes into Amsoil on this one. Obviously no one here is saying what went wrong with the WIX built Ea057. Is it the media? I think not. Filter construction? Same as Wix for that size, no?

I sure need to get to the root cause.

As for training Amsoil dealers, learning is required for T-1 certification. New dealers won't get referrals or very far without certification. Part of certification is learning the products:

Amsoil Engine Flush

Quote:
Unlike many flush products, AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush features a multi-use formulation that dissolves and disperses sludge, varnish and deposits in both engines and automatic transmissions. Due to its detergent-based formulation, used AMSOIL FLSH can be easily disposed of with waste oil, making it more user-friendly. Its advanced formula of light base oil technology, powerful detergents and dispersants provides safe cleaning action. AMSOIL FLSH is compatible with both petroleum and synthetic oils, preparing poorly maintained equipment for installation of new oil. It represents the first step toward restoring neglected equipment to top-notch performance. AMSOIL Engine and Transmission Flush provides the following benefits in only one treatment:


BTW - this is not a solvent based product.

 

[demarpaint]

T-1 Certification is optional isn't it? They can get customers by selling to friends and build a business that way, granted no referrals. Besides T-1 certification is an open book test. I'm really not impressed with that to be honest.

 

[Pablo]

Yes optional, I think open book as I recall, but really no need to cheat. But I'm not sure what level would satisfy you....you would just notch it one level higher.

On the other hand I have never been impressed with the folks at WalMart, AAP, NAPA, etc selling oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Pablo


On the other hand I have never been impressed with the folks at WalMart, AAP, NAPA, etc selling oil.


True but they aren't pushing extended drain intervals either.