ADBV, standpipe, running a big filter inverted etc

[Gary Allan]

The flow will take the shortest path to the interior. Naturally if there's flow in excess of what can be passed easily through the available space in the convolutions of the pleats, it will probably bias itself toward the holed end of the media. What that will eventually do is saturate that part of the media first, biasing it back toward the blanked tube part of the media.

That's just speculation, mind you. If it did occur that way it would be on some curve, and would surely be altered as time/mileage/loading progressed. One the media is blanked at a certain point, the other the tube.


But think of a regular Swiss cheese center tube. The same theory applies. The flow will want to take the shortest pathway out of the filter. Why descend all the way to the bottom of the filter? Much shorter to just "dip in and dip out" right at the end plate.

Except for something like a Spin-Flo, that's probably what occurs. The flow will shear and get slower as you descend into the can, with the end of the can having the least movement and the open end having the most.

That's until the upper level of the media gets saturated; making the lower/deeper sections more appealing to flow.

If you see what I mean...

What I'm saying is that there isn't the advantage one would think with the full depth perforated tube. One the media blanks off with age, the other part of the tube is blanked from the get go.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan

If you see what I mean...


Yeah, even in a filter with the center tube full of holes from top to bottom, there still might the possibility of some flow differences through the media ... but I'd think it would be much less pronounced when the center tube if fully holed compared to only one end having holes in the center tube.

Only real way to really know is if a full gambit of tests (flow vs psid, filtering efficiency, holding capacity, etc) was done between two exactly same built filters, but one with the stand pipe center tube design and one a full Swiss cheesed center tube design. Would be interesting to see if there were any real differences.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Yeah, even in a filter with the center tube full of holes from top to bottom, there still might the possibility of some flow differences through the media ... but I'd think it would be much less pronounced when the center tube if fully holed compared to only one end having holes in the center tube.


That's how we typically perceive things in some intuitive manner. What you might consider, and this tends to reorient that perception, is the total square inches of the threaded stud/nipple that you screw it on to vs. the total area of the holes in the stand pipe. I think that they'll add up to the same if not more in area.


Quote:
Only real way to really know is if a full gambit of tests (flow vs psid, filtering efficiency, holding capacity, etc) was done between two exactly same built filters, but one with the stand pipe center tube design and one a full Swiss cheesed center tube design. Would be interesting to see if there were any real differences.


Wix or any other manufacturer has that data and would probably share it if asked.

The WIX 51460 appears to be a decent filter in terms of efficiency. I imagine, given the applications, that it also has a decent holding capacity.

Part Number: 51460
UPC Number: 765809514607
Principal Application: A-C, Eicher, Hyster, JCB, M-F, Perkins Engines
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Lube Filter
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 5.811
Outer Diameter Top: 2.966
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 3/4-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 15-17
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/19
Burst Pressure-PSI: 300
Max Flow Rate: 7-9 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 21

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.740 2.370 0.275

But, yes, we're just speculating

 

[Gary Allan]

That is, btw, about the longest 3" diameter 3/4-16 thread filter that I can recall.

This could be the SuperFL400S for the "altered states" crowd.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Yeah, even in a filter with the center tube full of holes from top to bottom, there still might the possibility of some flow differences through the media ... but I'd think it would be much less pronounced when the center tube is fully holed compared to only one end having holes in the center tube.


That's how we typically perceive things in some intuitive manner. What you might consider, and this tends to reorient that perception, is the total square inches of the threaded stud/nipple that you screw it on to vs. the total area of the holes in the stand pipe. I think that they'll add up to the same if not more in area.


I would think/hope there was enough total area in the center tube holes to accommodate expected max flow (ie, total hole area = ID of filter mount tube). If the engineers did their job correctly, then yes we would expect to see the two areas be about equal.

What I was trying to relay is that on a center tube with only holes on say the top 1/3 or 1/4 of its length, the oil flow pattern through the filter media will be somewhat different than if the center tube had holes from end-to-end. It would be interesting to see what the comparison of flow vs. psid data comparing one design to the other would show. I would think that if it really had an impact, you could see it with flow vs. psid data. Of course, we will never see such data I'm sure ... but I would think the manufacture of these filters with stand pipes might have it, IF they did their design testing correctly to ensure it didn't screw something up in the filtering or debris loading performance of the filtering media.

 

[H25B]

I agree with both points of view (oddly enough). I truly can see both sides but I have decided I am more comfortable with the Wix/Napa design.

Having held them both I can tell you the plastic standpipe in the Wix has a smaller OD (while retaining sufficient ID) than the perforated metal pipe. There's no doubt in mind mind that all of the media, top-to-bottom, will get used very evenly.

I like the fitment of the 51460 on my particular application the best but I am in the midst of an emotional, knee-jerk, over reaction to a guy who lost an engine where a high bypass pressure filter was used. That's the only negative to the 51460 for me. Rationally I am sure the 51460 is fine and after I stop hyper-ventilating because of a one in 2 million occurrence I may end up using the 51460 as my filter of choice...

PS-FYI update: I have about 1800 miles on the 51806 now, so far it's great. Even though the ADBV isn't silicone it seems to be holding fine. Pressure at start-up, hot or cold, is almost instant and the oil looks great (I know that 'looks great' means somewhere between "little" and "nothing".)

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: H25B

Having held them both I can tell you the plastic standpipe in the Wix has a smaller OD (while retaining sufficient ID) than the perforated metal pipe. There's no doubt in mind mind that all of the media, top-to-bottom, will get used very evenly.


I'm on the fence about that one; ie, even flow through the media with a stand pipe center core. The only way you could ever determine if that is true is to do some sophisticated lab testing that nobody but the big oil filter manufactures could do. Personally, I think having holes in just one end of the center core is forcing the media on that end to take most of the flow.

Did you see this recent thread and its links?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1959394#Post1959394

 

[H25B]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: H25B
There's no doubt in mind mind that all of the media, top-to-bottom, will get used very evenly.
I said "very evenly" not 100% perfect

The only way you could ever determine if that is true is to do some sophisticated lab testing that nobody but the big oil filter manufactures could do. Personally, I think having holes in just one end of the center core is forcing the media on that end to take most of the flow. Absolutely. I agree with both points and that's the main reason I prefer the Wix (so far).

Did you see this recent thread and its links?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1959394#Post1959394 Yes, the first link is back to this thread. The other ones are about the PL20195. Some of the 4.0L Toyota's do fine with a PL20195 (and others) some don't. Tow Package Taco's have that 'thing' at the base of the filter to run the oil through a cooler. Most 4.0L Toyota's, mine included, do not. I wonder if that helps to reduce filter drainout. Perhaps there's something unique to that plumbing arrangement vs mine that makes it less likely to drain out.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: H25B

Did you see this recent thread and its links?
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1959394#Post1959394

H2B5's Response:
Yes, the first link is back to this thread. The other ones are about the PL20195. Some of the 4.0L Toyota's do fine with a PL20195 (and others) some don't. Tow Package Taco's have that 'thing' at the base of the filter to run the oil through a cooler. Most 4.0L Toyota's, mine included, do not. I wonder if that helps to reduce filter drainout. Perhaps there's something unique to that plumbing arrangement vs mine that makes it less likely to drain out.


The 'thing' at the bottom of the oil filter is the actual oil cooler. Coolant flows in/out of the base that the filter sits on. I doubt the coolant-to-oil cooler changes the way the inverted filter drains when the engine is off.

I think how the filter retains oil is mainly due to how good the ADBV works or not - even on a filter with a center stand pipe design. IMO, good filters with silicone ADBVs should be used on an application like the Toyota V6 used in the Tacomas/4Runners, etc to ensure oil drain back is minimized.

Next time I do an oil change I plan on doing a little "drain back experiment" on the PureOne I'm using.