Better fuel mileage with synthetic?

[Smokescreen]

OilGuy2:
Those kind of mpg increases could be had by a number of external factors having nothing to do with oil, 30km/hr less wind, higher ambient temperatures, change in air pressure, a couple of PSI in the tires, some gear in the trunk...even a minor a change of drivers mood could do it. You could have that much variance in two completely identical cars.

You've got too many variables on the go to conclude anything substantial attributed to oil type. Try the test again, back to back changing no other variables than the oil itself (dino vs synth) and see what numbers you get.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
and use 70-72% antifreeze for optimal cooling


I hope you mean water not antifreeze, as a higher ratio of antifreeze to water will lead to worse cooling performance.


With ethylene glycol, the cooling ability continues to increase up to 70% antifreeze and 30% water according to the current printing on 100% bottles of Prestone. Above that ratio of ethylene glycol, the cooling performance begins to diminish.

The cooling performance also diminishes below that 70% ratio. Whoops...did someone not figure that out already?
70% is optimal. Some manufacturers listed it as 72% (Peak?)


I stand corrected.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: OilGuy2

From what I see on this forum, there's a lot of people using synthetics that remain uncomfortable with the long oil change intervals. Well, the aforementioned Sentra SER went 17,700 miles on the previous oil change and for the current 14,000 miles the gas mileage has continued to improve and the top off requirement has not changed from before: around 12 ounces every six months.



So you left your oil in for 17 700 miles. How did the oil perform? Any UOA or other anlaysis, or you're just happy you only have to add 12 ounces every six months?


EPA is 24 city 30 highway but the car gets 28 city and 34-36 highway.

Have to admit that I'm pretty happy with the low rate of top off required. Pretty nice to go 15 months and 17,700 miles and still have a little bit left in a quart bottle.

The current fill is at 14,000 miles and the current top off quart is still half full. With less top off, I'm not likely to go past 15,000 this time. Expect to change it out shortly.

UOA would be interesting, but I run a mix of four different lubricants for ease of turnover, fast oil pressure rise, reduction of friction, extreme pressure capability and maximum shear resistance. Its 91.1% PAO, 6.4% Moly and 2.5% ESTER by volume. The main component is Mobil 1 EP oils. Moly and Ester are the key to fuel economy and extreme reduction of wear.



So for the people that are "using synthetics that remain uncomfortable with the long oil change intervals", you are telling them, go ahead and run a longer interval because I only have to add 12 ounces every six months, so synthetic must be better than dino? You have no idea of how well the oil is actually performing.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: lexus114
wow, ya got me thinking here. ^^^^^


He has me thinking too...thinking that there's an awful lot of opinion in his post without any data to back it up.


That's what the doctors said to Louis Pasteur when he recommended that surgery be performed with sterile hands and sterile instruments on a sterile table. So the Army Surgeons continued to drink and smoke while performing surgery during the American Civil War and surgeons did not adopt Louis Pasteur's recommendations for several decades.

Kindly post your difference of opinion and include your data to back it up please. Or is "change" the problem?


I actually run synthetic in my vehicles and have for many, many years (late 80s). However, the difference between you and I, is I don't put up posts urging others to use it over dino based upon my personal non-scientific observations that it is better than dino.

So unfortunately, I can't post any data indicating that dino is better than or equal to synthetic. I could post all sorts of anecdotal evidence like there are millions of cars that run dino exclusively and have no sludge, but that would make my post like yours.

The point to my post was to point out that, in your post, you haven't posted any evidence indicating that dino perorms worse in any of the conditions you so assuredly mentioned - especially in a ridiculous sentence like this...

"So, for stop and go city driving...No Dino. Climbing long steep grades with every seat taken or a load on board...No Dino. Temperatures in the 90's and above every day...No Dino. Towing a trailer...No Dino. Racing...No Dino. High speed like out in the plains states or Texas where 90-95mph is allowed...No Dino."

Rather, you have posted your "feeling" that synth is better than dino, and your opinion that it shouldn't be used in the aformentioned conditions.

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2

That's what the doctors said to Louis Pasteur when he recommended that surgery be performed with sterile hands and sterile instruments on a sterile table. So the Army Surgeons continued to drink and smoke while performing surgery during the American Civil War and surgeons did not adopt Louis Pasteur's recommendations for several decades.



I think you mean Joseph Lister. And I have no idea how this relates to anything being discussed. Lister actually peformed experiments - he didn't just say that disinfection prevented infection out of the blue.

 

[CATERHAM]

I haven't read the entire thread but the answer is maybe.
Fuel economy relates to an oils HTHSV, CoF of the base oils, the add' pac' and VI.
Synthetic oils often have a lower overall CoF and higher VI.
So for a given HTHSV syn's may have an advantage particularly when their VI is so much higher like the Toyota Brand 0W-20 with it's 216 VI vs a dino 5W-20 with a VI of only 150 or so.
Then you could see the maximum improvement in fuel economy but still you're only talking about 4% on average.
Can you accuraely measure such a small difference in fuel economy; it's hard to do since there are so many varables involved.

 

[DavidZ28]

No gains here either.

 

[edhackett]

Quote:
I stand corrected.


No you don't. Freeze protection continues to increase up to a 70% concentration of ethylene glycol. EG has a lower specific heat than water, so a 30% EG concentration would have better cooling ability at high temperatures.

Ed

 

[rcy]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Quote:
I stand corrected.


No you don't. Freeze protection continues to increase up to a 70% concentration of ethylene glycol. EG has a lower specific heat than water, so a 30% EG concentration would have better cooling ability at high temperatures.

Ed


OK, I stand RE-corrected.

I thought I'd read somewhere that plain water was better for cooling.

 

[synthetic_crazy]

I only noticed a 1-2% increase in mileage when I switched from dino 5w-30 to synthetic 5w-30 in my Corolla. However, since I have been using Mobil 1 0W-30, I have noticed a 6-7% increase in mileage. Of course I have a very light foot--which helps tremendously!

 

[CATERHAM]

You can attribute 2% at most to the M1 0W-30. The remaining 4-5% is something else, likely a measuring error; it doesn't take much.

 

[wiswind]

CATERHAM states 4%.
On a vehicle at.....say 30mpg, that is 1.2mpg difference.
At 25mpg, that is a 1mpg difference.
YES, I like a MPG improvement, but I.....cannot place a 1mpg gain to the oil in my crankcase over other variables.
There are simply TOO many variables, even on the same highway.
Fuel pump shutoff, vehicle condition, tire air pressure, prevailing winds, traffic, how fast I was going, etc.

 

[OilGuy2]

Smokescreen: The car has an on board computer and sensors that continuously measure Miles Per Gallon (for the current tank) and Miles to Empty. It display on the dashboard radio's LCD screen.

There are a lot of variables affecting fuel efficiency. Some of those variables can be affected for the better. For example: choice of lubricant, viscosity of lubricant, add molybdenum, add ester, keep a clean air filter, 4-wheel alignment, wash and wax, drive with the windows up (use the A/C!), empty the car of non-essential items, be patient, saving brakes also saves gas, know what is happening a 1/4 mile ahead to anticipate stops, select tires that can save gas and can run at their maximum load PSI. (True radial, not bias radial.)

How many people check tires regularly and religiously maintain the psi to optimal? It has a Tire Pressure Management System and if the pressure falls off a little bit (5-6 lbs from 51 psi) the dashboard light comes on. Its a waste though because I catch it when its only down 3 psi and I reinflate to 51 psi.

But I've always done the things I've listed since the price of fuel went above $2.00. The one thing that showed immediately on the on board computer was when I changed to M1 EP. When I changed the tires, it helped a little bit because the new tires were NOT HEAVY STEEL BELTED TIRES. But I kept the factory originals at 51 PSI and we avoided holes because that just throws the alignment out of whack.

Initially I'd say an 8-10% advantage. As the car's motor got "polished" over the last 3 years, it rose to 16% city/town, 20%
highway (at a steady 65 MPH) but I'll admit several factors are involved. Oil is one of them, and my wife has gotten better at driving the car smoothly.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: lexus114
wow, ya got me thinking here. ^^^^^


He has me thinking too...thinking that there's an awful lot of opinion in his post without any data to back it up.


That's what the doctors said to Louis Pasteur when he recommended that surgery be performed with sterile hands and sterile instruments on a sterile table. So the Army Surgeons continued to drink and smoke while performing surgery during the American Civil War and surgeons did not adopt Louis Pasteur's recommendations for several decades.

Kindly post your difference of opinion and include your data to back it up please. Or is "change" the problem?


I actually run synthetic in my vehicles and have for many, many years (late 80s). However, the difference between you and I, is I don't put up posts urging others to use it over dino based upon my personal non-scientific observations that it is better than dino.

So unfortunately, I can't post any data indicating that dino is better than or equal to synthetic. I could post all sorts of anecdotal evidence like there are millions of cars that run dino exclusively and have no sludge, but that would make my post like yours.

The point to my post was to point out that, in your post, you haven't posted any evidence indicating that dino perorms worse in any of the conditions you so assuredly mentioned - especially in a ridiculous sentence like this...

"So, for stop and go city driving...No Dino. Climbing long steep grades with every seat taken or a load on board...No Dino. Temperatures in the 90's and above every day...No Dino. Towing a trailer...No Dino. Racing...No Dino. High speed like out in the plains states or Texas where 90-95mph is allowed...No Dino."

Rather, you have posted your "feeling" that synth is better than dino, and your opinion that it shouldn't be used in the aformentioned conditions.


rcy: I'm sorry you felt motivated to make demands for "data" when you had none to support your disagreement. Thank you for admitting that. Please stop misrepresenting my post. We can agree to disagree and let each decide according to their own preference.

You want some proof, some "data" that supports synthetics over mineral oil? The finest, most expensive cars in the world come off the assembly line with synthetics. The racing world thrives on synthetics. Military and commercial aircraft use synthetics. Brakes and transmissions converted to synthetics decades ago. If it wasn't for synthetics, a lot of pole dancers would be out of a job.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
I only noticed a 1-2% increase in mileage when I switched from dino 5w-30 to synthetic 5w-30 in my Corolla. However, since I have been using Mobil 1 0W-30, I have noticed a 6-7% increase in mileage. Of course I have a very light foot--which helps tremendously!


Amen to that. Try a 300 ml can of LubroMoly with your oil and just one ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil for each quart of oil in the crankcase. Also, use Marvel Mystery Oil with the gasoline at the rate of 4 ozs per 10 gallons of fuel. It will keep your rings, valves and cylinder heads free of carbon. It will also cool the combustion chamber better, allowing for a fuller charge and smooth out the combustion. I have a Pathfinder that takes premium fuel but runs great on Shell Regular Grade with Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, without pinging.

M1 Turbo Diesel Truck has ester in it. There are others. Ester and Moly are the key. Marvel has a little in it as well. Good luck with your Corolla. Great economical car to own.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: rcy
Originally Posted By: OilGuy2

That's what the doctors said to Louis Pasteur when he recommended that surgery be performed with sterile hands and sterile instruments on a sterile table. So the Army Surgeons continued to drink and smoke while performing surgery during the American Civil War and surgeons did not adopt Louis Pasteur's recommendations for several decades.



I think you mean Joseph Lister. And I have no idea how this relates to anything being discussed. Lister actually peformed experiments - he didn't just say that disinfection prevented infection out of the blue.



Lister discovered "Listeria"...the bacteria and disease that affects people who drink unpasteurized milk. Pasteur was the one that came up with the process (pasteurization) to make milk safe without the risk of contracting a deadly disease that almost always killed its victim, or an unborn fetus.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: OilGuy2
Originally Posted By: synthetic_crazy
I only noticed a 1-2% increase in mileage when I switched from dino 5w-30 to synthetic 5w-30 in my Corolla. However, since I have been using Mobil 1 0W-30, I have noticed a 6-7% increase in mileage. Of course I have a very light foot--which helps tremendously!


Amen to that. Try a 300 ml can of LubroMoly with your oil and just one ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil for each quart of oil in the crankcase. Also, use Marvel Mystery Oil with the gasoline at the rate of 4 ozs per 10 gallons of fuel. It will keep your rings, valves and cylinder heads free of carbon. It will also cool the combustion chamber better, allowing for a fuller charge and smooth out the combustion. I have a Pathfinder that takes premium fuel but runs great on Shell Regular Grade with Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel, without pinging.

M1 Turbo Diesel Truck has ester in it. There are others. Ester and Moly are the key. Marvel has a little in it as well. Good luck with your Corolla. Great economical car to own.


One does not need MMO to keep their rings, valves and cylinder heads free of carbon. I have 300+K Km engines that are quite clean using just a good synthetic oil and proper maintenance.

Given the composition of MMO (which has been posted on this site), I'm not sure how you can make the claims you are making regarding its performance. It's a very mild solvent/light oil, nothing more. It has the ability to perform some light cleaning, act as a UCL....etc but not much beyond those things IMHO.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
One does not need MMO to keep their rings, valves and cylinder heads free of carbon. I have 300+K Km engines that are quite clean using just a good synthetic oil and proper maintenance.

Given the composition of MMO (which has been posted on this site), I'm not sure how you can make the claims you are making regarding its performance. It's a very mild solvent/light oil, nothing more. It has the ability to perform some light cleaning, act as a UCL....etc but not much beyond those things IMHO.

Toyotas are often affected by carbon deposits on the piston top, combustion chamber, valve faces and upper rings because of the nature of their fuel injection system. The carbon deposits occur primarily when the engine is cold and is a bigger problem where winters are long and the trips are short.

MMO will remove those deposits in a single treated tankful of fuel while fuel injector cleaners will not. I had a 1987 Toyota Camry for 22 years (2.0L SOHC) and carbon was an issue due to cold winters and short commutes. MMO was the cure. Toyota's cure was to tear down the engine and clean it.

Oil in the sump does not reach the combustion chamber or the top rings very well unless an engine is pretty worn which is why the MMO is added to the fuel.

MMO also has ester type aromatics that will adhere to engine metal. Because of its penetrating nature, it will get into very tight areas such as valve guides and help protect against wear. One of the obvious advantages of MMO is that it is very inexpensive: slightly more $$ than a quart of Dino but less than a quart of synthetic and a little goes a very long way. Its characteristics are unique and different than other oils and other cleaners.

I make no claims about MMO regarding fuel efficiency. A very small amount makes oil flow more easily and it makes engines cleaner: top to bottom. It follows that makes oil less resistant to circulation through the engine and that circulation improves temperature uniformity and reduces friction. But that doesn't mean it saves fuel. There is always 0W-20 or 0W-30 to use instead but they do little or nothing for the combustion chamber, piston top or valve faces.

MMO is primarily used in aviation, for which it was designed. Since your car does not fly, you should not try it. Big Oil would agree that all possible aids to fuel efficiency should be removed from the marketplace, other than their oil.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[KrisZ]

I haven't read so many generalizations mixed in with, what appears to be, some sort of "agenda" in a while.
20% fuel efficiency increase just for switching to synthetic? MMO able to remove deposits in one tank treatment? No dino when traveling 90-95 mph or going up the hill?

All I can say is, WOW.

 

[OilGuy2]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I haven't read so many generalizations mixed in with, what appears to be, some sort of "agenda" in a while.
20% fuel efficiency increase just for switching to synthetic? MMO able to remove deposits in one tank treatment? No dino when traveling 90-95 mph or going up the hill?

All I can say is, WOW.


Here's MY agenda: help the little guy realize better gas mileage and less engine wear. Secondary agenda: rebuttal the naysayers.

The fuel savings is due to many factors in combination. Carefully chosen full synthetics with friction reducing additives is part of, but not all of the picture. I mix oils...heaven forbid! And I consider, but may ignore the recommendations of manufacturers or dealers. To some, this is sacrilege. To me and the three mechanical engineers in my family it is science, not emissions or politics.

If you want to see some gas mileage claims, go down to the additives section and read some of the posts regarding Marvel Mystery Oil and TCW3 2-cycle oil added to the fuel.

Heating oil currently costs around $3.70 a gallon. Add a few ounces of detergent package, put it into quarts with a snappy label quoting API and ILSAC letters and numbers and I'll bet you can sell 5 quarts for nearly three or four times the cash.