Best tranny fluid for my application

[Fitz98]

Thanks to all who helped with answering my original post regarding Mercon alternative for a 4R100 tranny.
Seems like a majority has had good success using Mercon V as an alternative to the original Mercon, with no problems and that now Mercon and Mercon V ARE compatable fluids when at one time they were not, and that now Mercon V IS an acceptable formula for the 4R100 tranny, when at one time the formula was not.
Now I have to ask, which one?
I do a lot of towing with my 1998 Expedition. Towing about 5-6K lbs. Usually on flat roads of Florida, but occassionally on hills and mountains of NY.
So my question is, which is the fluid of choice for this heavy towing application. Full synthetics are really not financially an option, because it's a full fluid change (18-20 qts.)
I have seen Coastal, Castrol, Valvoline, Supertech, Penzoil, Napa.
Lastly, anyone with any bad experience using the Mercon V in a Mercon replacement application?

 

[qdeezie]

I don't have any input on Mercon vs Mercon V, but when you say it's financially not an option to use full synthetic, have you priced Valvoline MaxLife using the Advance Auto Parts online discount coupons as well? Or is Mercon V just that cheap?

 

[Fitz98]

The Merc/Dex spec looks like it will work for me too.
I have read to avoid fluids that are speced for multiple vehicle applications.
I do have high mileage (140K miles) but the service has been regular, and some posts say to avoid the high mileage fluid if there is not any specific problems with the tranny that would require a high mileage application.
Opinions?

 

[OVERKILL]

This is what is currently in my 4R100:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Other_Products/Mobil_ATF_DM.aspx

 

[Fitz98]

This one looks really good. Thanks for the link.
Having troubles finding a local store that carries it here in Florida.

 

[chad8]

you can get amsoil synthetic off their site or online for about $8 a quart with member pricing.Look on craigslist too. deals are out there.. Spend an extra $50-100 now or $2000 when your trans pukes. Its up to you.

I would look for full synthetics for a ford.Any brand that meets mercon v specs will do. I own 2 of them and see how well built the transmissions are for towing.

 

[Fitz98]

Thanks, I am kind of fanatical about regular fluid changes, so I would prefer to find a local source to get a reliable fluid spec and do frequent changes with a more affordable product. Difference between 80.00 changes and 160.00 changes. I think either way should not compromise my tranny with regular maintenance. Would you agree?

 

[chad8]

I think you thinking is kind of backward. More damage is done to transmissions changing fluid than any other service.
Ask any trans shop how many failures they have after fluid changes? Do not believe their garbage about the trans was ready to go.
A lot is caused from improperly done service and the wrong bulk fluid they used.
.Even if you do it yourself , it happens a lot.
Secondly, if you use a synthetic , you can almost double your service interval with better spec fluid, thereby saving you money overall.
I found 15 quarts of amsoil transmission fluid for $50 on craigslist. I will leave it in my ax4n about 50000 miles with no worries. I first will do a pan drop and filter change , then a fluid exchange.
That is the only true way to properly perform a trans service.
You said that money is an issue. That is the real way to save it.

 

[ARB1977]

Love Amsoil Universal. That's what I got in my Tacos tranny. Found out I can use it in our Jetta as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chad8
you can get amsoil synthetic off their site or online for about $8 a quart with member pricing.Look on craigslist too. deals are out there.. Spend an extra $50-100 now or $2000 when your trans pukes. Its up to you.

I would look for full synthetics for a ford.Any brand that meets mercon v specs will do. I own 2 of them and see how well built the transmissions are for towing.


It is a 4R100 in a gas application, it isn't going to puke. This is the same transmission they put behind the 7.3L PSD.

 

[unDummy]

You can usually get ATF and gear oil from Advance Auto Parts. When you buy it online, use the AAP discounts from our sales forum section. Makes the price reasonable.

I usually buy overpriced M1/... online and then use the AAP discounts to knock the price down to acceptable. Then, just pick it up at the store.

My last purchase last week was 10 quarts of M1 gear oil for $60. I had to pick it up from two local stores since each only had 5 quarts. Normally, 10 quarts of M1 gear oil would cost $110. My neighbor buys his RoyalPurple ATF, oil... the same way, in 3-10 quart increments depending on the discount of the week and how much is needed.

Never pay full price:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=33&page=1

 

[chad8]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: chad8
you can get amsoil synthetic off their site or online for about $8 a quart with member pricing.Look on craigslist too. deals are out there.. Spend an extra $50-100 now or $2000 when your trans pukes. Its up to you.

I would look for full synthetics for a ford.Any brand that meets mercon v specs will do. I own 2 of them and see how well built the transmissions are for towing.


It is a 4R100 in a gas application, it isn't going to puke. This is the same transmission they put behind the 7.3L PSD.


The release of Ford's Super Duty in 1999 kick-started an explosion of aftermarket performance parts for the revamped 7.3L Power Stroke. But dieselheads quickly found the weak link: the 4R100 transmission. Much like the E4OD (offered behind Power Strokes from '941/2 to '97), with just a hot performance tune and a heavy right foot, the stock slushbox could be destroyed rather easily.

One shop that's been specializing in 4R100s (and any Ford transmission, for that matter) since the beginning of diesel truck performance is John Wood Automotive. Over the last decade and a half, owner John Wood has seen all kinds of transmission failures, and each bulletproof transmission he puts together today is the result of extensive, hands-on research and development. With a full line of transmissions for Ford trucks, he's built a reputation of doing the little things that make an automatic durable, reliable, efficient, smooth shifting, and according to his customers-indestructible.

Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Visible Damage
The first signs of internal...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Visible Damage
The first signs of internal damage were visible after the 4R100's transmission pan was removed. A considerable amount of metal was present in the bottom of the pan, and the magnetic drain plug had accumulated a lot of debris as well (arrow). John Wood told us that this was probably due to the clutch plates breaking down and coming apart.
Over the winter we got our hands on an '00 Ford F-250 Super Duty with an ailing factory automatic transmission and took it to Wood. Once there, we were able to see his expertise in action, as he transformed the stock, burnt-up 4R100 into a rock-solid, tow- and track-ready unit.

Affordably Priced
Thanks to longtime engineering friend John Corrao (who has offered an array of knowledge over the years), Wood is able to build a transmission unlike anything else offered on the diesel truck market. Wood's entry-level transmission (called the Tow Master) features a triple-disc torque converter with a billet front cover, new clutch plates, custom pressure plates, a modified coast clutch drum and reverse hub assembly, a modified valvebody, and is rated to support 375 hp at the wheels. It also comes with a written, 3-year/50,000-mile warranty. And the best part is: At only $3,600, it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to have a reliable, built automatic transmission. But don't let the low price mislead you. By machining his own components and doing nearly everything in-house, Wood is able to keep his overhead costs very low.

Shifting Mannerisms
We don't know what it is about the aftermarket, but neck-snapping shifts aren't ideal in built automatics intended for street use, or in towing applications. Once the tires spin and traction is lost (during a hard shift) you've often already lost the race, or some of your towing momentum (there's nothing worse than anticipating a whiplash-like shift with 12,000 pounds behind you). We agree with Wood that the best shift a transmission can make is a nice, clean shift transition with a very quick rpm drop-not one so firm you feel it in the truck's dash.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Snap Ring
With the transmission pump...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Snap Ring
With the transmission pump and coast clutch drum removed, Wood pointed to the open-ended retaining snap-ring on the Overdrive assembly (arrow), which, along with the retaining snap-ring in the coast clutch drum, is notorious for working its way loose in stock 4R100s and causing all kinds of problems. In this case, it hadn't failed yet, so he pressed on with the disassembly to see where the real damage was.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Loose Bolts
Next, Wood discovered the...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Loose Bolts
Next, Wood discovered the three bolts that hold the transmission's center support in place were loose (arrows). This can lead to excessive heat in the transmission, no Reverse gear, and even no forward gears. After that, the bottom of the transmission case was hand-surfaced for straightness using a hand stone.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Hot Spots
Here you can see some of the...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Hot Spots
Here you can see some of the hot spots Wood found on the Overdrive clutch plates in the transmission.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Direct Drive Clutch Plate
This photo showcases a direct...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Direct Drive Clutch Plate
This photo showcases a direct drive clutch plate pulled from the failing transmission (left) compared to how it should look (right). With this kind of damage, Wood told us that the Third gear shift slipped the clutches drastically, built up heat, and culminated in a very hard hit at the end of the shift-and the truck's owner concurred.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Resurfaced Trans Pump
Following the teardown and...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Resurfaced Trans Pump
Following the teardown and inspection of the stock transmission, Wood began the upgrade process. First, the transmission pump needed to be resurfaced because, like the transmission case, it becomes warped over time due to heat and wear. Most shops use a hand stone for this process, but Wood machined both halves of the transmission pump on a CNC lathe. Between the machining process and the inclusion of new, specially hardened pump gears, Wood essentially gives his customers a brand-new transmission pump with each transmission rebuild.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Reverse Gear
Wood's fix for the Reverse...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Reverse Gear
Wood's fix for the Reverse gear is really pretty simple. Due to the factory Reverse hub having no firm reinforcement, it can flex and blow out under high levels of stress. He simply added a CNC-machined ring to the bottom of the factory hub and TIG-welded it into place (shown). Then, for further longevity, Wood machined the Reverse planetary to accept bearings, rather than the factory washers (the washers come apart over time).
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Snap Ring
As mentioned earlier, the...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Snap Ring
As mentioned earlier, the factory retaining snap-ring in the coast clutch drum is only secured by a small metal dimple, and it can work its way loose over time. To end any possibility of this happening, Wood machined the factory coast clutch drum to fit a much larger retaining snap-ring in its place (arrow).
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Transmission Pump
With a new boost valve sleeve...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Transmission Pump
With a new boost valve sleeve (for torque converter lockup) and the factory regulator springs (which have proven durable) installed in the transmission pump, both halves of the machined transmission pump were band clamped together and torqued to 18 ft-lb. Wood told us that since there isn't a gasket sitting between the aluminum pump halves, torquing the bolts correctly is very important.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Input Shaft
For this particular build,...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Input Shaft
For this particular build, Wood installed a cryogenically treated input and intermediate shaft. Cryogenics has proven to provide ultimate resistance against wear and allows components to better handle the torsional stresses produced by modified diesels. All of Wood's cryo'd transmission parts come from Wide Open Performance in Sandy, Utah.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Locking Snap Ring
During the Overdrive and coast...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Locking Snap Ring
During the Overdrive and coast clutch assembly, Wood also replaced the factory snap-ring on the Overdrive piston with a locking snap-ring (the thicker of the two). This way, it too can never work its way loose and wreak havoc inside the transmission.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Bearing Hub
From there, the center support...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Bearing Hub
From there, the center support was machined on both sides. According to Wood, Ford engineered plenty of play into the center support, so this tightens up the tolerances and keeps everything in a straight, centered line with virtually no play. Then he installed a new ball bearing and the center support bearing hub (shown). We should note that, in all of Wood's transmissions, anywhere a new bushing or seal goes, the area is hand-polished for the smoothest surface possible.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Forward Drum Plug
Next on Wood's fix-it list...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Forward Drum Plug
Next on Wood's fix-it list was the forward drum plug. The factory plug just sits in place and is known to back out. This causes complete pressure loss in the transmission and a truck that won't move forward. Wood simply removed the plug, tapped the hole, and put a set screw in its place. Once again, it's the little things Wood does that pay off in the long run. Also notice that he upgrades the forward drum to a fully splined unit out of an E4OD, which he prefers over the one found in the 4R100.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Clutch Plates
Instead of using aftermarket...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Clutch Plates
Instead of using aftermarket clutch plates commonly used by transmission builders, Wood used factory-spec clutch plates from BorgWarner. He believes the available aftermarket clutch plates, which are thinner, don't last as long as the factory units do. Wood also told us the factory clutch plates he uses are proven, and that by running a thicker clutch plate he is able to use his custom pressure plates for utmost durability.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Valve Body
After the hard parts were...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Valve Body
After the hard parts were reinstalled in the transmission case, Wood finished up the valvebody by installing a Tugger shift kit from TransGo (PN 4R100-HD2), along with a few other valvebody tweaks for ideal shift behavior. Wood was very adamant that the valvebody work depends on the customer. Prior to any build, he finds out how the customer drives the truck, what modifications have been made to the engine, what type of ring and pinion is being used, and he also asks the owners how they want their trucks to shift. Most importantly, he wants to know if the truck's aftermarket tuning ramps up line pressure electronically. If it doesn't, he can ramp up pressure mechanically in the valvebody. If it does, he won't set the valvebody up as aggressively.
Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Triple Disc Torque Converter
The icing on the cake in a...

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Diesel Power Ford F250 Super Duty Transmission Triple Disc Torque Converter
The icing on the cake in a John Wood transmission is the triple-disc torque converter with a billet front cover. Built by PDQ Automatic Transmission Parts in Sacramento, California, it's based on the triple-disc converter found behind 6.0L Power Strokes in Ford's 5R110 TorqShift transmission. According to Wood, what makes this converter so great is the stall speed is 200 rpm lower than most of his competitors. To date, Wood claims this torque converter has yet to fail in a single application.
Transgo
2621 Merced Ave
El Monte
CA 91733
626-443-7451
http://www.transgo.com/ John Wood Automotive
366 Maple Avenue
Holtville
CA 92250
760-356-9421
www.jwtt.com
BorgWarner
3850 Hamlin Road
Auburn Hills
MI 48326
248-754-9200
www.turbos.bwauto.com PDQ Automatic Transmission Parts
8380 Tiogawoods Drive
Sacramento
CA 95828
800-852-3351

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: chad8

The release of Ford's Super Duty in 1999 kick-started an explosion of aftermarket performance parts for the revamped 7.3L Power Stroke. But dieselheads quickly found the weak link: the 4R100 transmission. Much like the E4OD (offered behind Power Strokes from '941/2 to '97), with just a hot performance tune and a heavy right foot, the stock slushbox could be destroyed rather easily.



Yes, they are known for (primarily) converter failures behind the 7.3L Powerstroke in the Super Duty trucks. This tends to take out the rest of the tranny when the converter comes apart. But this is behind the diesel.... Which makes 500lb-ft of torque STOCK.

The 5.4L in the Expedition for that year only made 335lb-ft of torque.

And other than the converter issues, it was (and is) regarded as a very strong transmission overall. There are plenty of aftermarket converters for it to eliminate this weak point behind the heavy trucks. I've been considering getting one actually, because I drive very hard.

Amsoil isn't going to magically make the converter bulletproof. No fluid is going to help. It isn't a fluid issue. And it isn't an issue with this tranny behind a gas engine; most issues that I've read of are when it behind a diesel... And almost every failure I've read of started with the converter going.


Maybe I need to quote some magazine articles to make my point?

We've owned THREE Expeditions with this transmission. How many have you owned?

 

[Fitz98]

Interesting stuff. When it comes to transmissions, I only know what I read.
My reason for wanting to change the oil in the first place is a VERY SLIGHT intermittent issue when at a stop.
Mostofthe time, I don't jump right on the gas, but let the idle of the truck start in motion as traffic ahead of me starts. Recently and intermittently, I sometimes have to give a little gas in order for things to start moving. The other slight issue is when going about 65 to 70, as I let off the gas pedal, the natural decelleration is a little jerky, not as smooth as it once was. I was thinking this was likely due to fluid issues and certainly the least expensive intitial step in troubleshooting what could potentially be the start of a bigger problem. Any opinions or similarities to what has been described above, or possible sign of torque converter failure? I definately do not want to get into major tranny rebuilds in the future so, if a TC change is preventative, it may be worth exploring after fluid change.
Also, with these minor issues, does high mileage or synthetic fluid now become a better option? Or is it possible, that I just need a fluid and filter change to get things working as seamlessly as they have been up until recently?

 

[Fitz98]

Interesting stuff. When it comes to transmissions, I only know what I read.
98 Expedition 4R100 tranny
Regularly serviced at 30, 60, 90 and now planning to do again at 140.
Generally tow with 6-7K lbs on mostly flats. Park in reverse on slight incline of drive.

My reason for wanting to change the fluid in the first place is a VERY SLIGHT intermittent issue when at a stop. Most of the time, I don't jump right on the gas, but let the idle of the truck start in motion as traffic ahead of me starts. Recently and intermittently, I sometimes have to give a little gas in order for things to start moving. The other slight issue is when going about 65 to 70, as I let off the gas pedal, the natural decelleration is a little jerky, not as smooth as it once was. I was thinking this was likely due to fluid issues and certainly the least expensive intitial step in troubleshooting what could potentially be the start of a bigger problem. Any opinions or similarities to what has been described above, or possible sign of torque converter failure? I definately do not want to get into major tranny rebuilds in the future so, if a TC change is preventative, it may be worth exploring after fluid change.
Also, with these minor issues, does high mileage or synthetic fluid now become a better option? Or is it possible, that I just need a fluid and filter change to get things working as seamlessly as they have been up until recently?

Should also mention very slight friction noise coming from differential in idle. Fluid and cover have been changed by dealer about 3K miles ago.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Fitz98


Should also mention very slight friction noise coming from differential in idle. Fluid and cover have been changed by dealer about 3K miles ago.


Friction noise? Please elaborate on this.

As far as the fluid goes, as I said, I found Mercon V to be more "smooth" in this transmission; it made the shifts less pronounced. I prefer the more solid shifts that the regular Mercon/Dexron III fluid has given me.

This flush is the first COMPLETE flush I gave the tranny since I bought the truck. It had MANY partial flushes (pan drains) between the time I bought it and this full fluid change.

My next change I will probably go Synthetic however, because I can get the Petro-Canada fluid (Ford Mercon V approved, one of the few that are) for a very good price locally.

I have no complaints about the Mobil fluid however, and it was very inexpensive. If you are just trying to see if it will eliminate/affect your issue, I suggest buying an inexpensive D/M fluid like the one I'm using and do a change with it. If it fixes your issue, great! Then maybe change it out again later for a synthetic. But there is no point dumping in expensive synthetic fluid if it is all going to have to come out if it ends up needing a converter.

BTW, your converter has a drain plug on it, accessible through a rubber plug on the bottom of the bellhousing. Our two other Expeditions had it, but my '02 does not; it was removed after '01

If you dump the pan (drain plug) and the converter (drain plug) you'll come close to draining the entire system without having to do a "flush".

 

[Fitz98]

Thanks,
I have started a new post regarding the slight issues that have led up to me considering the fluid change. I am new to the forum and figure that a new post is appropriate when subject matter changes off original topic.
It's an interesting topic for me, since these small symptoms are rather new. You know how it is when you drive your vehicle, you feel when something is a little "off".
Anyways, the noise from the differential, sounds like as if 2 frictional surfaces were just ever so slightly rubbing against each other. I don't know the mechanics of the differential, but what I think in my mind would be as if a clutch assembly was rubbing together without engaging (this noise happens in Park and it is very slight). I also had to change the Anti-loc brake sensor a few hundred miles after the dealer changed the differential cover and fluid. Not sure which path is the right path...fluid, TC or differential.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Fitz98
Thanks,
I have started a new post regarding the slight issues that have led up to me considering the fluid change. I am new to the forum and figure that a new post is appropriate when subject matter changes off original topic.
It's an interesting topic for me, since these small symptoms are rather new. You know how it is when you drive your vehicle, you feel when something is a little "off".
Anyways, the noise from the differential, sounds like as if 2 frictional surfaces were just ever so slightly rubbing against each other. I don't know the mechanics of the differential, but what I think in my mind would be as if a clutch assembly was rubbing together without engaging (this noise happens in Park and it is very slight). I also had to change the Anti-loc brake sensor a few hundred miles after the dealer changed the differential cover and fluid. Not sure which path is the right path...fluid, TC or differential.


Your rear diff (probably the 9.75") will have a T-Loc setup in it, which is a clutch-type limited slip. Mine chatters a bit when I hit the gas making a turn, so did the one in my Mustang, and so does the one in my parents Expedition, so I pay it no mind.

When you had the fluid changed, did they put in the Ford Friction Modifier for the limited-slip? If not, that explains the clutch pack noise.