Best Motor Oil For Engine Wear - The Facts Only - No Hype Zone Here

[XS650]

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Originally posted by Engine_Mapper:
All the engineers who have looked at this tell me, based on real evidence, not conjecture, that you need oil pressure to avoid wear. Without oil pressure, wear soars to high levels and nothing prevents that much.

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Oil pump pressure gets the oil to the surface to be lubed and has not much to do with how the surface is lubed, providing the supply of oil is adequate.

The majority of lubed surfaces in an engine have no outside supplied oil pressure, the oil is splasjed or run over most surfaces. Even the journal bearings which rely on the oil pump for an adequate supply of oil to keep the bearings cool and the space between them full, develop their own pressure in the hydrodynamic wedge. That pressure is far above what the pump develops.

 

[Michael SR]

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Your view of the culture is flawed.

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i'm intimately aware of the culture at NASA. i work in the ISS program. i certainly did not state their culture was steeped in flawed engineering analysis. i instead meant that NASA is one place where engineers understand precisely that engineering analysis has flaws, mostly because we don't always know everything we need to know.

you don't base an engineering decision on what other people said, or a spec sheet. you have to take the correct factors into account for your specific application, then test, revise, retest, analyze, revise, retest, etc...

i'm merely trying to point out that many of your assertions smack of the lack of "engineering analysis" that you proclaim is so important. for instance, asserting that anywhere above texas you should use oil XYZ and everywhere below oil PDQ... that's pretty absurd, actually. i don't put much faith in the type of oil analyses we can afford, and i even doubt that results are as much dependent on the oil as anything else, but right now i'd take a UOA over your assertions.

-michael

 

[Patman]

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Originally posted by Michael SR:


as an example, 5W30 M1 is thinner at 40 C than 0W30 GC. i can't remember the exact number for the GC, but the 10W30 M1 might even be thinner.

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My VOA showed 67.6cst at 40c for GC 0w30, which is higher than M1 10w30, which is around 60cst.

 

[jsharp]

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Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael SR:


as an example, 5W30 M1 is thinner at 40 C than 0W30 GC. i can't remember the exact number for the GC, but the 10W30 M1 might even be thinner.

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My VOA showed 67.6cst at 40c for GC 0w30, which is higher than M1 10w30, which is around 60cst.

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And the GC has shown better wear numbers has it not? Looks like there's more to it as we've said...

 

[XS650]

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Originally posted by Engine_Mapper:
About which oil to use: I've researched that and here goes:

Chevron Delo 400 Synthetic 0W-30 if you live north of Texas, and Mobil 1 0W-30 if you live south of Texas (southern states only).

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You need to take a look at the actual differences in viscoity and times required to get full oil flow to bearing surfaces at actual temperatures where the engine is being used. If you are 30 to 40 degrees above the lowest recommended temperatures for 10W, then the differences won't amount to a rats rear end. Whether you use 0W or 10W, or -5W when that comes out.

There have been strong indications that some of the 0W-xx oils don't hold up as well at high temps and heavy loads, so they could easily be worse than a good 5W or 10W under many conditions.

[ March 23, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]

 

[Patman]

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Originally posted by jsharp:


And the GC has shown better wear numbers has it not? Looks like there's more to it as we've said...

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True. Some oils on here don't look all that special in the VOA or on the spec sheet, yet show really good results though, such as Motorcraft 5w20 and Syntec Blend for instance.

The more we learn, the more confused we can make ourselves sometimes.

 

[haley10]

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Originally posted by Engine_Mapper:

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Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
...as long as you are within the temp limits of oil you are using...0w, 5w, 10w will make no difference in how fast pressure is created. ...

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The 0w is the best to use. That number does matter. The oil is less thick and flows to bearings, etc., faster at startup. Why anybody (outside of racing) would use a 5w or 10w is beyond me. If the goal is reducing lifetime engine wear, then using a 5w or 10w is self-defeating. The startup issue dominates. I think the only reason American car manufacturers specify that 5w-30 is OK to use is because of 2 main reasons:
(1) They don't give a rat's *** about lifetime engine wear, warranty period is all thats important to them.
(2) They assume you'll use conventional (non-synthetic) oil, not available in 0w-30.

That being said, my 2003 Silverado owners manual does say I can use a 0w-30, so its warranty legal.

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Yep, I think they have to assume most people will use dino, because they do.

CAFE standards come into play also, but I think they do care about engine life.

My GM manual states that 0W-30 or 5W-30 synthetics are preferred if the temps are"very cold.", but above 0F, 10W-30 is recommended.

Unless you regularly have below zero temps, I think your argument fails.

At 60F and up, I'd rather have the better HT/HS.

Your blanket statement is flawed, imho. Let's discuss factually.

 

[JohnnyO]

I might be north of Texas, way north, but I've been running Mobil 1 0w-30 all winter in my 4.0 Ranger. Will get a UOA in a few weeks when I change it out with 5k on it. We'll see.

 

[mikemc]

If you truly want to know what the best oils are for wear and you want facts and not opinion, spend a few hours in the UOA section.

 

[Motorbike]

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Originally posted by XS650:

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Originally posted by Motorbike:

If oil A has a MRV TP-1 rating of 28,500 @ -35c

And oil " B " has an MRV TP-1 of 23,800 @ -40c

Which oil will pump better at 35f and again at 50F ?

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More importantly, will there it make enough difference to matter 66F to 90F above your single data point for both oils. I think not.

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So at least someone's getting my drift

The first oil is Conoco 5w-30 dino.. then Mobil 0w-30

Drop those temps down to the 20's if you like

BTW , my post was in responce to this :

However, the engineers and fleet managers have told me directly (yes, I called 4 of them), and Mobil advertises it::::: the engine startup wear problem. This dominates, and unless anyone can say otherwise with some actual evidence like these tribologists have clearly demonstrated, the dominate thing is STARTUP WEAR, not running wear. Therefore, a "0w-XX" oil is best.

Ow-XX is not the answer for all in the oil would . Be nice if it was that easy though

Have I told anyone how much I like the Mobil 0w-40 Supersyn today ?

[ March 23, 2004, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[buster]

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Have I told anyone how much I like the Mobil 0w-40 Supersyn today ?

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I'm using it next for the summer months.

Their is something to this 0w arguement. Why are all race teams now running 0w-5 and 0w-30 for racing? They also specify that bearing wear is better using these oils. The 5w-20 UOA's we have confirm this.

BTW, M1R is used throughout the whole race, not just qualifying. 0w-5 is used to qualify.

The HT/HS of 2.99 is by design to maintain max. HP. Maybe that is how Ryan Newman wins all these races.

8 last year! So to all of those worried about M1R, I'm sure it will protect your little mini-van just fine if it's protecting a 800hp NASCAR.

[ March 23, 2004, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Motorbike]

Buster wrote:

Their is something to this 0w arguement. Why are all race teams now running 0w-5 and 0w-30 for racing? They also specify that bearing wear is better using these oils

They are not running 0W's for start up protection

They can be formulated without VII's , pour point depressants for a single purpose . Nothing in there thats not needed so to speak making for essentially straight wt oils with h$ll for good low temp properties due to the nature of the tri-basestocks used .

Why are all race teams now running 0w-5 and 0w-30 for racing

To keep up with the Jones's next door of course

[ March 23, 2004, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[buster]

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The more we learn, the more confused we can make ourselves sometimes

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Patman, you hit the nail on the head. 2yrs ago I never thought I'd still be playing around with this now obsession of motor oils. However, your 150k + mile thread has me leaning more towards the convenience factor more then ever knowing there are many good oils out there and that you don't need a RL/Amsoil to give you long engine life.

 

[Jimbo]

Stimulating discussion. However, are you going to put 0W-30 in a $50,000 BMW M3 in violation of the warranty? 10W-60 is specified for that car.

I think the main premise of this thread is false. Cold starts are not dry starts, particularly if the car is driven daily. All of the oil has not drained into the pan overnight. Present the hard evidence about all this wear at startup and none once warmed up, particuarly in southern climates. I have UOA's that are way too low on wear metals with thick oils to support your theory. I will take a high HTHS number and flashpoint over a low CCS number and pour point for my vehicles in my climate, thanks.

[ March 23, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Jimbo ]

 

[Engine_Mapper]

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Originally posted by Motorbike:

If oil A has a MRV TP-1 rating of 28,500 @ -35c

And oil " B " has an MRV TP-1 of 23,800 @ -40c

Which oil will pump better at 35f and again at 50F ?

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Oil B will pump easier at 35f and 50f if it is a cheap dino oil, and it will pump harder if it is a good synthetic. But remember, the differences in easier/harder pumping are small at 35f/50f while cold pumping viscosity differences mean a few more seconds of metal-to-metal contact. Besides, one must use a synthetic to get the best over a wide temperature range.

 

[Engine_Mapper]

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Originally posted by haley10:
Can you post some of these statistics?? I am using M1 10W-30, but I have an open mind.

I've poured my oil at -10F and a 0W and I can't tell a difference, so I'm not sure my pump or engine can.

I decided to run this 10W-30 year round because it seems totally fluid at my temps. What am I missing?

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If you look in the very firsp post in this topic, there are a couple of links for some data. The little investigation I did a couple of years ago over the phone and e-mail when I was investigating the benefits of using Pennzoil's Penzane solid lubricant on our control moment gyros on a Mars spacecraft. It started with a conversation with a Pennzoil engineer, and he mentioned that "oh, by the way, Penzane is in our synthetic motor oil, but I'm not sure it really does much good there, since start-up wear is really the killer for cars". Incidentally, the Mars spacecraft did end up using Penzane due to its performance in the vacuum of space. Its true Pennzoil's marketers was putting a picture of a spacecraft on their synthetic oil, and there was indeed small, trace amounts of Penzane, but its mostly marketing lies that it does much good in cars. For the Mars spacecraft it was great, though. Anyway, I went off on a tangent and started calling/e-mailing Mobil, a Canadian oil company, 76, and a couple of MIT engineers, given that I was a bit obsessive about the subject, and some interesting conversations showed up such as "A fleet of trucks was analyzed specifically for start-up wear and it was found that cranking accounting for 60%, in one case, of the lifetime wear on an engine". Other similar conversations ensued with whoever would talk to me, and the conclusions were all the same, STARTUP WEAR so dominates the picture, that as long as you have oil pressure you're engine is not wearing much. Therefore, most of the game becomes getting oil pressure as fast as you can. Period. Other people on this post will try to tell you other things, but as long as you have a good basic oil that flows well when cool/cold, you're fine. This post did change my mind about Chevron Delo Synthetic, though, as now I think German Castrol 0w-30 will cut your wear down more than anything else because it continues to flow when cold.

 

[james1]

There is really only one solution for todays modern OHC engines. Two separate systems and two separate oils. Low vis XW-20 for the bottom half and high vis/high HT/HS XW-50 for the top half.

Then we can all go back to leading productive lives.

 

[ZiTS]

I'll put an end to all this arguing right now -

1) Install an engine pre-luber.
2) Use whatever oil you want.

Problem solved!

<---- I love this guy.

 

[XS650]

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Originally posted by ZiTS:
I'll put an end to all this arguing right now -

1) Install an engine pre-luber.
2) Use whatever oil you want.

Problem solved!

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I've been expecting someone to offer them for sale in this thread anytime now.

[ March 23, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]

 

[Patman]

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Originally posted by ZiTS:
I'll put an end to all this arguing right now -

1) Install an engine pre-luber.
2) Use whatever oil you want.

Problem solved!

strong>

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If you add an oil pan heater to those two choices then you probably never have to worry about engine wear ever again.