Best cleaning oils have high calcium?

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
+1
Here's are a couple of little data points that anyone can find on this board using the search tool.
We have a member here who owns an engine shop in Dayton, OH.
He has stated that of the engines his shop tears into the ones run on Valvoline oils are typically very clean.
I can tell you personally that Valvoline Maxlife 10W-40 worked very well in my old BMW, although the Maxlife formulation of that time did contain moly. I can back this up with a used oil analysis, which I posted in August 2012 in case anyone wants to view it.
There may be reasons beyond cost that have Valvoline continuing with their sodium add pack. It may offer advantages not obvious to us.
Any oil formulation involves trade-offs. It's not all good in all ways.

MaxLife is great oil, I would say probably best HM lubricant.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: chrisri

MaxLife is great oil, I would say probably best HM lubricant.


That's been my experience. I have some in the 10w30 grade in our old E350 ATM. The old 351W seems very smooth about 1K into this OCI.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Liqui Moly and Mobil do not use Na add's in any of their oils that I've seen, it's only used in a few non GTL or G4 standard base oils.
It does get used in cheaper oil like one of the Valvoline oils and was in Castrol GTX 10w40. Part of the reason it might be getting used more as an alternative to Ca or Mg, is that it allows the amount of Moly (Mo) to be reduced slightly, IF the oil has enough Boron (Bn).
The last Valvoline oil I looked at had no Moly, no Boron, but did have some Na. It was a real cheap one, BUT you do get what you pay for and salt is almost free!

Google is good for the data.


Sodium is not salt. Your assumptions about needing moly and boron in engine oils seems strange. What makes you think you must have these two elements ?

 

[53' Stude]

Another poster bashing a oil by looking at a VOA. Sodium is a alternative to Moly also and a oil that uses it is NOT CHEAP. Love how people ASSume on this board instead of reading about additives

 

[77GrandPrix]

Originally Posted By: car51
Another poster bashing a oil by looking at a VOA. Sodium is a alternative to Moly also and a oil that uses it is NOT CHEAP. Love how people ASSume on this board instead of reading about additives


+1

 

[BrocLuno]

There is another issue to cleaning, other than detergency. That is basic chemistry. Have an engine run on Grp I & II oils, switch up to PAO and it will get cleaned out pretty well in a 1/2 dozen changes.

Have an engine that was run on PAO for many thousands of miles, switch up to ester based and the same thing will happen. The alternative chemistries will "get under" the old varnish layer if not baked on so had it must be removed mechanically ...

 

[UltrafanUK]

You will also see some differences when looking at a VOA of an oil that uses a full AW, EP and FM range of additives vs one that just relies on Na (The salt comment was a joke) and a reduced level of Zinc.
Just look at the study done of BMW engines over 5000 mile OCI's and you can see the difference between Castrol Edge and Mobil 1 (Mostly 5w30) oils and the more basic conventional base oils. That difference is not much until you look at Pennzoil Ultra and Castrol GTX.

You get what you pay for from the additives included in modern oils, although the difference in wear terms relates mostly to increased turbo bearing wear and top end oil flow issues.

 

[UltrafanUK]

You can't have an effective balanced add pack without additives and apart from Zinc based ones, they are expensive.

 

[4wd]

What is the top end oil flow issue you mentioned ?

 

[UltrafanUK]

I agree with the first part that it might well take half a dozen OCI's to fully clean up a varnish job, BUT there is no need to try and waste time or money cleaning up the top end the old way, just use a major brand idle flush additive. I don't use Liqui Moly oils as Shell are cheaper, BUT their idle flush additives are real good and will shift varnish.
Never heard of varnish that is baked on the top end forming a layer. If that could happen the filter cutting fans would find it on a regular basis and they do not.

 

[BrocLuno]

 

[UltrafanUK]

Reduced oil flow rates due to restriction of the oil pump intake screen or varnish in one of the upper cylinder oil paths. For a diesel the more Ca the better, for a petrol job a combination of Ca and Mg works well.

Sodium is just too dangerous as it catches fire when exposed to air and goes bang in a big way when in contact with water.

 

[UltrafanUK]

I agree, which is why I use Shell oils and oddly enough Valvoline is one of the few US brand oils that the Germans use, although mostly Maxlife 10w40 for their VW drippers.

I don't think Valvoline make a G4 or GTL base oil and I'm not a fan of HC synthetics in a turbo due to hot shut down varnish and film breakdown risks.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Valvoline is major brand and comparable with any other in quality or price. Actually, it's often more expensive than Shell equivalent.

Yes I too consider Valvoline to be a quality major brand.

They use Ca and Na in their ILSAC grades, but Ca only in their Euro ACEA grades.

Here is a link to their PDF
(SynPower Specs)


Yes, the oils sold outside the EU don't have to meet Acea specs and a well know German race track (The autobahn) that really tests the oils add pack. Price is another factor, as it's very difficult to sell oils with expensive add packs in the US. Even Liqui Moly almost gave up selling G4 Synthoils in the US!

 

[UltrafanUK]

The more Ca and Mg in an oil the better it will deal with anti freeze contamination AND clean up sludge.

If you read up on Maxlife and other good High Mileage oils it does say that the first OCI should be half the normal one due to the blocked filter risk with an old sludge monster.

The false oil seal effect is offset with seal conditioning and swelling additives. Oddly enough it might be more of an issue if you changed over from a conventional base oil to a good high detergent full synthetic. In a bad case you might need to use a stop leak additive if the engine was a dripper in particular.

 

[CharlieBauer]

I've got a headache.

 

[4wd]

Could be low on KCl ...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Yeabut, Calcium is better than Magnesium for diesels. A mix of both Ca and Mg is better for petrol jobs, as the Mg lasts longer. Sodium is used in some cheaper oils as an alternative that also has an anti wear function and it makes used oil analysis tricky as anti freeze also contains Na based compounds.

Except we're seeing many HDEOs with magnesium/calcium additive packages, notably the one in my sump right now. Also, Mobil does use sodium additive packages in at least one line of conventional oils.

 

[SonofJoe]

Do the best cleaning oils contain most calcium? No, not really...

The whole over-based metallic detergent/engine cleanliness thing is a bit misunderstood. Calcium, magnesium & sodium, be they in sulphonate, phenate, salicylate or calixerate form, are your major sources of TBN & ash in any oil (ZDDP does ash but not TBN).

Lots of oils these days are limited one way or another in terms of ash or TBN and if you just restrict one, you sort of by default restrict the other. Generally oils carry a TBN of between 7 & 10. Of this TBN, you generally need 5 for boring, old rust control. The next 5 (if allowed) you might need because the spec calls for it (like the 10 min TBN for A3/B4), or because its a cheap 'indirect' antioxidant (by virtue of its acid neutralisation capabilities) which is usually the case for PCMOs or you just want to max out on ash (as in CJ-4).

What you don't tend to do is use detergents for engine cleanliness. That's what ashless dispersants are for. If you look at DI additives, ashless dispersants are in percentage terms, way bigger than over based detergents (especially in HDDOs). It's also what high VI base oils are for in so far as they reduce the amount of deposit forming VII polymer in a given blend.

 

[WhoKnows]

Mobil really do not use Na adds, it has Mg as an alternative option to weigh up an additive package in some of their oils. Not the best decision especially for gasoline engines, but still it's needed to reduce LSPI effect on last turbo engines.
LM uses Na in some of their oils, for example, LM Leichtlauf special AA.

Short OCIs can help only with soft dirt in the engine even with sunday morning autobahn sessions, and have nothing to deal with hard solid deposits.