Battery Energy Density close to Gasoline finally

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
...the typical problem with cramming that much potential energy into a small package is possibility of breakdown and fire.

And I was reading about flying cars in 1982 "Science" magazines being just around the corner.

Gasoline in a steel tank is as simple and old school as it gets. Its just wishful to think electricity will compete on that level.
That's the card up the enviroweenies sleeve, when battery cars become a majority they'll start in on that. What they REALLY don't want is US moving about freely, and not on government controlled transport. When they decide we don't belong in the forest it will become really hard to get there.

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From the article: Other issues that still have to be addressed include finding a way to protect the metal electrode so that it doesn't form spindly lithium metal fibres known as dendrites, which can cause batteries to explode if they grow too much and short-circuit the battery.


I worked for one of the world's largest automobile battery manufacturers back in the late 80s and 90s, and we had mechanical (not chemical) batteries then that equaled the energy density of liquid fuels. The problem then is the same, under a short circuit condition the thing became unbelievably dangerous. Liquid fuels can be safely transported, handled and stored as long as they stay a liquid.

Another thing is that as toxic as gasoline is it doesn't come near the dangers of the energetic materials required for high energy density batteries. Fighting vehicle fires is a lot different when a bunch of batteries are involved.
 
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
To me, the most glaring omission from the press release and article was that there was no mention of recharge rate. It's all well and good to say that you can put 200 kWh worth of battery in a car with no weight penalty, but it's pointless if that battery takes hours to recharge.
With enough taxpayer dough you can make the bottom line look really good.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
I had the opportunity over the Summer to visit TVA's Raccoon Mountain Pumped Storage Facility which is one clever way to take advantage of our off-hours power while using it as a "battery" if you will, for supplementing during peak periods. Talk about turbines under pressure! In both directions too.

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Interesting! How efficient are the pumps to get it up there, and then the losses at the output turbines?

I've wondered the same thing on electric/hybrid cars with regenerative braking. I mean, when you charge a battery that way, some heat losses (how much??) occur, and then of course discharging out of a battery has more heat losses. Sure you gotta live with it, but efficiency can be important here.
 
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No idea on efficiency. Might even be hard to run that analysis as the energy input is "free", those nuclear plants that provide power to the "pumps" are running anyhow. There are four power turbines in the powerhouse that reverse to pump up to the reservoir. Motor-generators would seem an apt description. Puts out 1,600MW for about 22 hours when they drain it all if what I read is correct. Water falling a thousand feet straight through that mountain must be some amazing pressure.
 
Speaking of motor-generators, storage systems, et al, calls to mind another interesting trend in Japan. There is demand from consumers there to use their hybrid cars as backup generators. Talk about distributed power. Seems a natural and makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already.
 
Originally Posted By: Falken
I'd be glad when oil is dead.

Nothing against oil at all, but the geopolitical mess it creates doesn't appeal to me at all.


I know, many answers on this forum view fossil fuels as some beloved hobby or civil right!
We should view it like you do in the big global picture.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Speaking of motor-generators, storage systems, et al, calls to mind another interesting trend in Japan. There is demand from consumers there to use their hybrid cars as backup generators. Talk about distributed power. Seems a natural and makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already.


Makes sense, and the Ford C-Max hybrid has a standard 110v AC outlet. I could turn the car on, point the exhaust outside the garage, and the thing would run as long as it had gasoline.
 
Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Speaking of motor-generators, storage systems, et al, calls to mind another interesting trend in Japan. There is demand from consumers there to use their hybrid cars as backup generators. Talk about distributed power. Seems a natural and makes you wonder why it hasn't been done already.


Makes sense, and the Ford C-Max hybrid has a standard 110v AC outlet. I could turn the car on, point the exhaust outside the garage, and the thing would run as long as it had gasoline.



Consider that each one of those hybrids has quite a battery as well so perhaps it would not be necessary to run the car if the need is short duration or not too demanding.
 
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar
Consider that each one of those hybrids has quite a battery as well so perhaps it would not be necessary to run the car if the need is short duration or not too demanding.
Ford C-Max hybrid (not the plug-in model) has a 1.4kwh battery. Assuming you can discharge down to .2kwh to avoid full depletion, that leaves 1,200 watts for one hour. Engine shouldn't have to turn on but once an hour depending on the watt draw.

Truth about the C-Max 110v outlet is that its got a 1.2 amp limit, and can't be used with high L (Henry's) loads, i.e, motors. Therefore, to be super-useful in a power outage would require some sort of minor engineering mods.

I met some of the guys that did the engineering on the "Inverger" (vehicle-to-smart-grid) applications, so I could ask them what box I'd need to buy.
 
When you sit down and REALLY think about it, it is very simple.

Electric cars are the future. IC is being phased out.

Just think. All the infrastructure that is used to power a lightbulb is already in place to fuel an electric vehicle.

And electricity is a "necessary evil" for everything in life.

Just image: All those massive Supertankers, massive oil pipelines, mile-long Buffet trains full of oil, oil spills, ruined water tables.

An IC car that can go 0-60mph in 3 seconds can never be silent.

Electric cars are the next step, the evolution in transportation. No matter how much "real men" cry about the beauty of a V8, they are changing their tune when they see stuff like this more and more:

http://www.break.com/video/tesla-s-insane-mode-2966656


And note, this is 3 seconds to 60 SILENTLY.
 
Originally Posted By: Falken
Imagine a Tesla with a hydrogen fuel cell? The massive range it would have? Really cool.

Well, until we get the high energy density batteries (subject o' dis thread), I'd like to see the small BMW I3 gasoline engine generator placed on-board the Tesla for more range. "BMW’s range-anxiety Prozac is a 647-cc two-cylinder engine turning a 34-hp generator. The gas engine, borrowed from BMW Motorrad’s C600 Sport scooter, never drives the wheels..." -- http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/i3
 
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I toured the Raccoon facility a couple of years ago and asked about the efficiency of the setup. Ans - overall, 75%! That has to rank at the top of the class of energy storage strategies.

The nice part - It can be duplicated across the country. All you need is water and a stable substrate a few hundred feet underground that could be hollowed out, sealed and filled with water. Build a reservoir on top, hook up to the windmill field and commence to pump water up into the reservoir, storing energy.

Bill
 
Originally Posted By: Orange
I toured the Raccoon facility a couple of years ago and asked about the efficiency of the setup. Ans - overall, 75%! That has to rank at the top of the class of energy storage strategies.

Interesting. I've wondered how much these electric and/or hybrid lithium batteries actually re-capture from coasting and braking. I know it kind of depends on how much amps and at what voltage the charging/discharging is being done, but I'd be happy with 75%.
These new energy-dense batteries of this thread topic hopefully will have efficient charging and discharging.
 
Originally Posted By: Falken
Imagine a Tesla with a hydrogen fuel cell? The massive range it would have? Really cool.


OK, I am. Where are you getting the hydrogen again, and how are you storing it on the vehicle?
 
Originally Posted By: Orange
I toured the Raccoon facility a couple of years ago and asked about the efficiency of the setup. Ans - overall, 75%! That has to rank at the top of the class of energy storage strategies.

The nice part - It can be duplicated across the country. All you need is water and a stable substrate a few hundred feet underground that could be hollowed out, sealed and filled with water. Build a reservoir on top, hook up to the windmill field and commence to pump water up into the reservoir, storing energy.

Bill
And the envirowhacks will all line up to say "Not HERE".
 
I am not reading this whole thing, if it has not been said already, it is a LONG AND DIFFICULT PATH with many many fatal junction between working in a lab and working in the real world, from Alaska to Death Vally, for years.

I wish them luck and perseverance.

Rod
 
Originally Posted By: leeharvey418
To me, the most glaring omission from the press release and article was that there was no mention of recharge rate. It's all well and good to say that you can put 200 kWh worth of battery in a car with no weight penalty, but it's pointless if that battery takes hours to recharge.


You make a great point. With my new Focus Electric I just got, it dawned on me that my way of recharging the battery, using plain old 12-amp 120v (1440 watts), means it takes me 14 hours to get a full charge (for 80 miles), and a little more when you count possible battery warming or balancing stuff.

Most people will opt for 220v, and I've heard this Focus Electric will get a full charge in only 3.6 hours for 80 miles, so a hypothetical 320-mile range electric car of the near future can get a full charge using 220v in about 14 hours.
 
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