Ban the check engine light!

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I have one Toyota in the fleet which shows the PO 420 code about twice a year. I use the reset provision on the scanner to clear it, and it's good for another 6 months, including passing the PIMA state inspection.


Yeah, eventually that wont work anymore. The CEL goes off at 95% ridiculous. Just take off and clean the manifold cat.

 

[Patman]

My Corvette's driver information center has the ability to tell you which codes have been set in the computer, even the ones that aren't serious enough to trigger the check engine light. This info is not widely known though, it's not in the owner's manual, I found it from Corvetteforum.com

Back in 1988 I bought a brand new 88 Dodge Shadow ES Turbo and immediately bought the service manual as well. In there I found out that you can read the codes as well, simply by cycling the ignition a few times in a row and then counting the number of blinks on the check engine light.

 

[91344George]

I bet the cost of incorporating the alpha numeric readout of the DTC codes for a car today would be about $10 a car because most of them today have alpha numeric displays built into the instrument cluster. It' is only a matter of adding a few lines of code to the ECU to spell out the code for drivers.

This should be mandated. It needs to be done so that dealers or shops can't cheat unsuspecting customers.

 

[mechanicx]

Even if you know the code that doesn't prevent you from losing money. For example say you have an evap code. The shop could through incompetence or crookedness throw parts at it and replace almost the whole evap system when all you might have needed was a leaky hose replaced.

 

[hattaresguy]

I don't see the big deal, you can buy OBD2 scanners for like $30 these days. If you work on modern cars you need one, as much as a wrench.

 

[mechtech2]

Why stop at the code #s?
Why not show what is found wrong in plain English. [Spanish, etc..]

 

[calvin1]

The most frustrating thing for me is the thought that the car is holding out on you. In most cases it knows a lot about it's failings and it's not willing to cough it up. Codes are nice but then there's the freeze-frame data stored with them plus the live telemetry. I'm thinking of a time when I was getting misfire codes and not knowing whether it was a high-speed or low-speed miss would have made diagnosis much more difficult. Fortunately the ScanGuageII could retrieve some of the freeze frame data to help point the way.

By not allowing all diagnostic information to be accessed the automakers have intentionally made it more difficult to work on their products. I'm not even asking them to build a scanner into the vehicle but just make all documentation publicly known. The aftermarket or hobbyists could easily pick it up from there.

 

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: Indydriver
But, CEL forces everyone to a dealer for service. What could possibly be wrong with that?



No it doesn't. You can buy a decent scan tool that even has live data for about $150. Add a factory service manual and you're all set....provided you have the skills.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: calvin1
By not allowing all diagnostic information to be accessed the automakers have intentionally made it more difficult to work on their products. I'm not even asking them to build a scanner into the vehicle but just make all documentation publicly known. The aftermarket or hobbyists could easily pick it up from there.


Incorrect.

The Right to Repair Act forced every automaker who sells vehicles in the U.S. to make available all necessary special tools, scan tools, diagnostic software, module programming utilites, and service information. Basically, everything that is required to diagnose and repair a vehicle must be available for purchase. It's not free, but it's all available.

This gives any independent aftermarket repair facility or vehicle owner the exact same abilities as a dealership.

 

[calvin1]

Really? Please point the way. Pick any make and model and show me where I can find complete documentation. If I have to knock on just the right door in Detroit bearing Matco, SnapOn or AllData business cards and carrying a suitcase full of cash then Right to Repair is not much of a right.

They have it all already but they've intentionally made it as difficult and obscure as they could. I'm not asking for anything more than some PDFs on a website. If I wanted to prototype some gadget the semiconductor companies would gleefully bury me in datasheets and application examples. They might even be convinced to send me a few sample parts for free. How is the relevant specs for a car any different that they can't have them parked online somewhere for the asking?

 

[91344George]

@Calvin1:

You are correct, the devil is, as usual, in the details. It is true that the manufactures are required to make it "possible" for independent shops and customers to repair and diagnose BUT the way you have to go about it is difficult and often times EXPENSIVE. The manufacturers clearly are adhering to the letter of the law but NOT the sprit of it and in my book that is a form of fraud.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: calvin1
Really? Please point the way. Pick any make and model and show me where I can find complete documentation. If I have to knock on just the right door in Detroit bearing Matco, SnapOn or AllData business cards and carrying a suitcase full of cash then Right to Repair is not much of a right.

They have it all already but they've intentionally made it as difficult and obscure as they could. I'm not asking for anything more than some PDFs on a website. I'm not asking for anything more than some PDFs on a website. If I wanted to prototype some gadget the semiconductor companies would gleefully bury me in datasheets and application examples. They might even be convinced to send me a few sample parts for free. How is the relevant specs for a car any different that they can't have them parked online somewhere for the asking?

www.acdelcotechconnect.com

For $20 anybody can purchase the use of all GM's service information for three days. Directly from GM, to your PC.

For $3,100, an independent aftermarket service facility can purchase a yearly full access all GM's service information, along with scan tool software support for GM's scan tools, and service programming. This is the *exact* service support package a GM dealer receives.

This information isn't hidden. A simple google search will find any of the following:

Honda/Acura or Ford? www.helminc.com
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Fiat? www.techauthority.com
Toyota/Scion/Lexus? www.techinfo.toyota.com
VW? erwin.vw.com
Audi? erwin.audi.com

They are also all identified and advertised in many of the trade periodicals, like Motor Age.

No, it's not free. Every automaker spends a considerable sum of money developing and deploying the information, software, and equipment required to service their automobiles. Suggesting that they just *give* this information away is kind of ridiculous. It is a product. It cost money to develop and deploy, just like the parts in the parts department, or the new cars in the showroom.

 

[calvin1]

Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
www.acdelcotechconnect.com

For $20 anybody can purchase the use of all GM's service information for three days. Directly from GM, to your PC.
So for $20 I could get enough info scraped out of their docs to build my own scanner? I could then talk to the body controller, transmission or security module?

I went down this rat hole two years ago with my 1996 Bronco trying to figure out the magic spell to get it to run KOEO & KOER, something I could do with a paperclip on the 1995 it replaced. I got close but could never make it work. I ran into a similar issue with my 2003 Taurus when nobody could figure out why the transmission light was coming on. The dealer was happy to install a reman; AAMCO wanted to do a rebuild; nobody cared to do diagnostics first. Since the transmission is outside the domain of OBD2 then Ford was off the hook for explaining how to talk to that part of the powertrain computers.

The Helm Inc links you gave got nothing on these two issues. I also know that there's a computerized factory shop manual for the Ford trucks from that generation because I had a bootleg version of it. Helm doesn't show anything like that, available or not.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: calvin1
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
www.acdelcotechconnect.com

For $20 anybody can purchase the use of all GM's service information for three days. Directly from GM, to your PC.
So for $20 I could get enough info scraped out of their docs to build my own scanner? I could then talk to the body controller, transmission or security module?


You're driving down a completely different street. This is service information, which is used to diagnose a vehicle at the technician level. This isn't engineering specs.

OBD II diagnostics come from SAE J1979, which defines a standard set of PIDs and communication protocols that allow a *universal* scan tool to read OBD II information. Because emission control systems are federally mandated, their diagnostics are too, including the information available on a scan tool.

The info you're seeking, stuff like BCM, TCM, and immobilizer communication and diagnostic information, is propritary to the automaker and is currently protected under trade secret laws, much like all software is.

A second, more comprehensive, Right to Repair Act has been propsed and it does attempt to define that automakers will disclose information that is currently propritary so that a truly *universal* scan tool can be developed. Unfortunatly, this would be like Microsoft being forced to release the source code to Windows 7. While still being illegal, it would be an instruction manual for creating counterfeit parts. In fact, some of the money supporting this new Right to Repair Act has been coming in from shells corporation who's Chinese parents do just that: create counterfeit parts.

 

[MrHorspwer]

Originally Posted By: calvin1
The Helm Inc links you gave got nothing on these two issues. I also know that there's a computerized factory shop manual for the Ford trucks from that generation because I had a bootleg version of it. Helm doesn't show anything like that, available or not.


Each automaker does this information different. Ford and Honda/Acrua use Helm, who also does the printing for the hard copy manuals. What you get from Helm is an electronic copy of a printed manual. I lump this in with the type of info you get from someone like AllData.

GM, Chrysler, and Toyota give access to their actual electronic service information sites. This is truly the info given to their dealership techs. If it's not there, it's really not there.

 

[GMBoy]

MrHorsepower is correct. All the service information you need is available to you. You can buy an online subscription or the paper OEM manuals. Most powertrain related issues you can solve with the data and an obd2 scanner. The body and chassis stuff, yes you will need a factory scan tool or equivalent.

Today's cars are easier to diagnose and work on. I am fortunate that I own a TEch 2 and several other scanners. The all paid for themselves already. I encourage anyone to buy atleast an entry level scan tool like Innova or Auto Xray sells with live data.

You will save money in the long run.

 

[InvalidUserID]

I don't think the average driver (non car enthusiast) would know what a random misfire is or a bank 1 o2 sensor malfunction is.

If anything, they could make the steady vs flashing CEL easier to understand. I mean, I know what the difference between a misfire and a regular malfunction is but most people don't even bother to read their instruction manuals.

 

[Vikas]

If you can not afford to buy a $40 code reader, you should not be buying a car.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
If you can not afford to buy a $40 code reader, you should not be buying a car.

That isn't the issue I think the issue is ease of acessiblity to the info. Simply allowing the codes to be presented on the existing matrix display on almost ALL new vehicles today makes good sense and would only add a few dollars to each vehicle if that. I really don't see why it would add any cost because the display is already in existance on most all new vehicles and the ECU can easily be programmed from the get go to provide the info.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If you can not afford to buy a $40 code reader, you should not be buying a car.

That isn't the issue I think the issue is ease of acessiblity to the info. Simply allowing the codes to be presented on the existing matrix display on almost ALL new vehicles today makes good sense and would only add a few dollars to each vehicle if that. I really don't see why it would add any cost because the display is already in existance on most all new vehicles and the ECU can easily be programmed from the get go to provide the info.


I think giving the average person access to a code and it's definition (in vehicle) probably isn't the best thing. Much of the vehicular computerization is due to federal emissions mandates. The feds want our cars clean. If Joe Blow is driving along and the CEL pops on and shows a P0455 and it's definition (EVAP leak), he thinks, "Ahhh... No big deal. What do I care?" The car is going to contribute more than it's intended emissions... Now imagine if 50 million people thought that way... Truth be known, they probably do.

I bet you're smart enough that I don't have to spell out the rest...

As for fixing cars, it's something that I've done since age 16 out of necessity. Even without scan tools, I've managed to fix several problems, but will have to admit that owning several (now) has greatly eased my repairs. My point is that many times, even without ready access to scan tools and data a determined person can get the job done. With the advent of affordable OBD II readers and the internet, a person can do A LOT of repairs for very little money invested.