Average Engine Life

[quick_16]

A comment. If your measuring average car life in terms of miles as opposed to drive train life or years. Your survey will have some odd results. For example, a hi-way(open road) driven car as opposed to a urban driven car will show a huge difference. The open road car may last 10 time longer, if the yardstick is miles. How about average engine life (a more direct reflection of maintenance and oil/filters) measured in two buckets. Mostly over road and urban driving millage???

 

[nel]

Hi-miler, funny you should say 10 years with the gaskets and seals. I'm in exactly that situation with our '95 BMW station wagon. It has about 150K miles, and has a slight coolant leak to the outside. It's the head gasket. Since the bottom end is good for 300K-400K miles, I'm going to put it in for a top end overhaul. Even though I know I'm saving money compared to buying a new car, it still hurts--especially since it's going to cost nearly as much as the wholesale value of the car!

 

[turbochem]

Wow, my cars must be above average...........


1995 Chevy Lumina...230,000+ (still own)
1984 Vovlo 240 Turbo...260,000+ (still own)
2002 Kia Sportage...40,000+.....give me a little time.......

Then again, I don't think those on the board are the average automobile owner......

Now, if you specifiy a single-female owner.....I'd give the engine ~15,000 miles.......

 

[widman]

As said earlier, it depends so much on driving habits and other maintenance items. I recently did oil analisis on two almost identical Toyota 4x4 PU. one had 10 ppm of iron in 7000 km, the other had 991 ppm in 3000 km. The difference was the level of silicon. My wife's 88 BWM has about 200,000 km on it without signs of problems. If you look at engine life, the average engine HERE gets rebuilt between 50,000 and 100,000 km for lousy maintenance and lousy oil. But the cars themselves never die until rolled or crushed in serious crashes. The average age of cars here is 15 years. Most have had the engines rebuilt at least 5 times, driveline parts replaced many times, and frames welded. Many have new floorboards or parts thereof. My 97 Toyota Bandeirante 4x4 pickup that covers 1000 km a week with 6 drums or so of oil on dirt roads has passed the 200,000 km mark. Consumes less than 1/4 qt of oil between changes at 7,000 km. Replacement parts have been PS pump, 3 hoses from air filter to engine, 12 driveshaft bearings, brakes, 2 clutches, 3 sets of tires, 2 bendix drives on starter,about 6 frame welds, numerous body panel welds, and a windshield after rioters crushed it with rocks.
The body is ugly and weak, but the engine and trans want to go on forever.

 

[dkcase]

quote:

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Originally posted by widman:
and a windshield after rioters crushed it with rocks.

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I haven't had that happen to me yet..

 

[TheTanSedan]

It isn't a question of miles accumulated so much as the care of the vehicle. Once an owner loses incentive to properly maintain the vehicle (as in our societally-rigged system of "depreciation" to keep us buying new cars), wear & tear increase dramatically as the degradation of one system begins to have an adverse effect on other systems due to lack of maintenance.

A car is nothing but a system of systems. As the integrity of the these linkages deteriorate -- and because the sheeple believe that "it isn't worth repairing" -- most cars wind up on the scrap heap far too early. Poor design and build quality add to this a dramatically short life on many vehicles (see the junkyards full of early 90's Grand Am's and such). Ignore the suspension and the brakes and body-bushings take it in the wazoo. Ignore cleaning electrical grounds and fixing oil leaks (and buy cheaply rebuilt components) and the electrical system becomes erratic. Replace ALL parts with the oem equivalent (as in, no cheap-*** discount tires or brake work). Etcetera.

Bottom line: Car dealers and parts stores clean out their inventory at about 15 years on most vehicles. Buy new parts -- not rebuilt -- and replace them BEFORE they fail. A schedule, for which a search of others experiences on the Internet is invaluable. Twice-annual trips to the dealer is what works well. Stick with factory parts and technician training (for the better independents).

Time to sell that 1990 vehicle now and reap the benefits of smart money management. The 1997 vehicle that has had first-line duty in the family of more than one driver can now be relegated to second string and another purchased if necessary (as an example). The 1997 has likely 75-105k on it and needs refurbishing: carpet, door adjustments, AC, etc. Replace the lamps and fuses, get the body-work done.

Mileage is irrelevant, as time is a more accurate indicator of the need for maintenance, IMO.

Work "the System" instead of the other way around.

 

[TheTanSedan]

(should have started with this)

The engine is unlikely to wear out prior to 200k on a modern vehicle; instead, it is the engine accessories and controllers that will fail and begin to cause system degradation. One can no longer separate the long-block from its attendant systems in a discussion of "engine life".

How else are we to determine such? Emissions failure on a properly-maintained vehicle (as most states carry such testing through to the twenty-five year point)? Piston ring and valve seal?

Outside of valve lifter adjustments and timing gear replacement -- given that they are correct -- the only wear and tear is on the above (along with bearing wear) and seal degradation in a decently designed/built engine.

Ring seal and valve seating can be put off almost indefinitely if ALL engine-related systems are kept top notch. I imagine that cooling system problems cause more damage than oil/filter problems for most people (at least, as I have seen).

 

[Kestas]

It all depends on how you define the life of a engine.

For some people, if they get an undiagnosed problem at 90K on a neglected car, that is probably a vacuum leak, they simply scrap the vehicle.

Others, like us, may rebuild a high-mileage engine after spinning a bearing.

It all depends on the tolerance level of the owner. There are a lot of cars scrapped during the 60s and 70s simply because the carburators needed cleaning and readjustment.

 

[oilrecovery2003]

I have found with other people and one of my vehicles, its usually the Transmission that needs the overhaul or a rebuilt one before anything else. I think people should pay more attention to that also. I change my Trans fluid every 10,000 miles sometimes less. I use either Castrol Dex, or Pennz Dex. THis last time I mixed in 5 qts of Mobil 1 ATF I got free at an Auto Zone because I had trouble from an employee there! So, that Mobil 1 is mixed with the Castrol at the moment. Hey, Can't hurt.

 

[MikeW]

And I get queasy when I have to drive through the Bronx

quote:

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Originally posted by widman:
As said earlier, it depends so much on driving habits and other maintenance items. I recently did oil analisis on two almost identical Toyota 4x4 PU. one had 10 ppm of iron in 7000 km, the other had 991 ppm in 3000 km. The difference was the level of silicon. My wife's 88 BWM has about 200,000 km on it without signs of problems. If you look at engine life, the average engine HERE gets rebuilt between 50,000 and 100,000 km for lousy maintenance and lousy oil. But the cars themselves never die until rolled or crushed in serious crashes. The average age of cars here is 15 years. Most have had the engines rebuilt at least 5 times, driveline parts replaced many times, and frames welded. Many have new floorboards or parts thereof. My 97 Toyota Bandeirante 4x4 pickup that covers 1000 km a week with 6 drums or so of oil on dirt roads has passed the 200,000 km mark. Consumes less than 1/4 qt of oil between changes at 7,000 km. Replacement parts have been PS pump, 3 hoses from air filter to engine, 12 driveshaft bearings, brakes, 2 clutches, 3 sets of tires, 2 bendix drives on starter,about 6 frame welds, numerous body panel welds, and a windshield after rioters crushed it with rocks.
The body is ugly and weak, but the engine and trans want to go on forever.

---

 

[Cruiserdrew]

I don't post much here but I had a few thoughts on this interesting topic. I believe what kills most cars is overheating. One overheat, and your average older car is not worth fixing, because the repair costs far more than the worth of the car. If everyone replaced their radiator and hoses every 7-10 years, I suspect most if not all cars could go forever, assuming that the wear components get replaced as you go along. Design and build philosophy also plays a role. I like Land Cruisers and have 3 of them. All the components are tremendously overbuilt and even a 50% clogged radiator still provides plenty of cooling. The motors hold 8 quarts of oil. Axles, transmissions, even wheelbearings are built with a much bigger and heavier vehicle in mind. The result is that even if neglected, they can provide service for a long time because in normal service the components are not stressed. If maintained properly, I'm not sure they ever wear out. I think Toyota does this with most of their vehicles, and that is why they run almost forever. I think that US makes in general do not share this philosophy, and build all components so that they have only enough quality on average to make the end of the warrenty, and a bit beyond. In time, people notice that their Mopar, GM or Ford cars are in need of major repairs by 100k and that's with good maintence. I don't mean to dump on US manufactures but I've been burned with a Chevy truck (1984 bought new) and a Crysler minivan (1994 bought new) and lets just say I own 4 Toyota's now. Sorry to rant on, I do enjoy reading this board.

My Cruisers:
1976 FJ40-original motor 183K (Chevron 20w-50)
1984 FJ60-original motor, 193K (Delo 15w40)
1997 FZJ80-86k but like new (Mobil 1 15w-50)

Andrew

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by hkkc:

quote:

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Originally posted by rjundi:
reliability and build quality is up

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Yes and no. VW has excellent build quality but reliability is still poor.

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In the 1980s I was working on a program where one of the major subsystems was designed and built by a German subcontractor.

The German system had some problems during test and one of our managers was giving the German project engineer some good nature ribbing about the German "perfection". The German project engineer said, "It is a common misperception that ve Chermans are perfect, Ve make mistakes too. But ven ve do make mistakes, ve make them much more precisely than you do."

 

[TheNauseator]

So many variables. Climate, driving style, conditions, fluids used, initial quality, roads.... I think you get what you pay for. I have seen Mercedes cars with 250,000 miles and still going strong and I've seen Dodge Neons, and crappy Oldsmobiles with 90,000 miles literally falling apart (body and drivetrain). I'd say, if you buy a good car you'll get 200k miles out of it. If you buy some low end POS you will be lucky to get to 100k without needing $$$ to keep it going.

 

[Bror Jace]

I agree that it depends on a lot of of factors.

Here in the Northeast, a regularly maintained daily driven vehicle will typically rust out or be totalled in a collision before its engine wears out.

But with so many people being unbelievably stupid, many vehicles are already showing their age well before the 100,000 mile mark.

I use better-than-necessary oils, filters, etc ... to get like-new performance froma vehicle which already has a lot of miles on it ... even if those miles aren't terrible gentle.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Thomas Pyrek]

quote:

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Originally posted by TheNauseator:
So many variables. Climate, driving style, conditions, fluids used, initial quality, roads.... I think you get what you pay for. I have seen Mercedes cars with 250,000 miles and still going strong and I've seen Dodge Neons, and crappy Oldsmobiles with 90,000 miles literally falling apart (body and drivetrain). I'd say, if you buy a good car you'll get 200k miles out of it. If you buy some low end POS you will be lucky to get to 100k without needing $$$ to keep it going.

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Wrong. It's all about maintenance. Chances are the guys with the nicer cars put a little more effort into keeping them from getting messed up. I've known a number of people who have cheapie cars lasts hundreds of thousand, because they actually maintain them.

[ March 21, 2004, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Pyrek ]

 

[TheNauseator]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thomas Pyrek:
Wrong. It's all about maintenance. Chances are the guys with the nicer cars put a little more effort into keeping them from getting messed up. I've known a number of people who have cheapie cars lasts hundreds of thousand, because they actually maintain them. [/QB]

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Well, my neighbor with his well-maintained 3 years old Oldsmobile is on his 4-th alternator and second starter and now his transmission is starting to go bad - it downshifts only to 2-nd gear and goes into 1-st only if you switch into N first. The car has a little over 50,000 miles and it's a pile of crap regardless of excellent maintenance that he gives it. He swears that he will never buy another GM product again.
My 2 cents.

 

[Blue636]

I had an Acura Legend 1988 that is at 198,000 miles now and runs like crap. Before I knew anything about maintenance I once let the oil go 12k on who-knows-what-kinda-oil and I'm guessing that was very bad. Seals and hoses are just crappy now, anyway.

I own a new car, 2003 Toyota Matrix, which has a Corolla engine (I think). I hope this lasts long enough for my daughter to learn on it... she's a year old. Of course, as has been said before, this website has turned me around. I was maintaining this car well, with OCI at 3k miles or less. Now I'm going to start with the UOA's for the car to learn more about it and also possibly extending those OCI's and save some cash.

I often wonder how many people I see out there on the road actually take care of their cars. I have mine washed/vacuumed and occasionally waxed every other week on Friday when the detailer comes to our office. The guy is amazing and my car still looks like new thanks to him... inside and out. Also, I see so many people out there and I look at cars in the lots and notice that about 75% desparately need air in their tires. Who knows what's going on under the hood???

It's funny someone mentioned single owner/driver females earlier.... My moronic co-worker let her truck (Dodge) once go over 20k without an oil change!

I told her that for just $10 I could change her oil for her rather than paying $20 at Jiffy Lube - she declined. Her truck has gone through so much ridiculous crap it's unbelievable. Her friggin' drive-shaft actually fell out when she was making a u-turn and her rear end was out! Her warranty is just up... 80k miles now and she bought it with 12k miles back in '97. She's now looking for a new truck

Anyway, it's sad to see people spend so much on major repairs and new vehicles because their cars don't last. Then they blame it on the manufacturer (Ford sucks, I hate Dodge, Mazda can bite me) for making crappy vehicles...

By the way, my car now has 14,600+ miles on it... when do you guys usually run the Auto-Rx? At 25k?

 

[rainman49]

I think it's a combination of luck and maintenance. You've got to be lucky to get well-matched components. If they're well-maintained, they'll last a long time - like my F-150 with the original 5.0L (never rebuilt) with 425,000 miles. Just finished a round trip of more than 1,000 miles this week after second ARX treatment. The truck is running so good it's almost scary. No problem keeping up with the tricked-out Hondas doing 85 on the interstate.

 

[aja8888]

Blue636: If you change your oil and filter on a regular basis, you won't need AutoRX at all. Just keep doing what you are doing!

Tony

 

[Blue636]

quote:

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Originally posted by aja8888:
Blue636: If you change your oil and filter on a regular basis, you won't need AutoRX at all. Just keep doing what you are doing!

Tony

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Awesome! Yeah, that Auto-Rx was looking a little expensive to me so I wondered.... Anyway, I plan on sticking to my routine.

Peace!