ARX rinse problem

[Palut]

Car: 1995 Honda Accord EX 2.2L VTEC 134,250 miles
Old oil: Chevron Supreme 10w30 w/ARX
New oil: Chevron Supreme 10w30
Old filter: Fram PH-3593A (used up my last remaining evil Fram)
New filter: Purolator Premium Plus L14459

Today I changed out the oil containing my second ARX clean phase, beginning my 2nd rinse phase, and there's a bit of a problem: I've driven about 20 miles since the change, and the engine runs like crap! It feels like I'm under engine braking all the time. The car runs so rough that it feels like when you shift and you don't give it quite enough gas (not the lurching car feeling, just a vibration throughout the car). This problem showed up after driving about 13 miles, and got really, really bad after about 16. The oil did reach at least 185 degrees, and the symptoms did not go away.

Looking through the oil fill cap, I can see a little buildup on the stationary parts. This was not there before ARX, appeared grew a little during the first clean and rinse, and quickly tripled in size during the 2nd clean phase (only 1,000 miles!). Picture wet granulated sugar, only black.

The oil that came out from both clean phases and the first rinse was all golden, like new, so I don't think that the engine was very dirty before my treatments (I was doing it to combat a seal leak). From 90k miles (when I bought it) to the beginning of these ARX treatments, the car has seen either 15w40 HDEO, M1 0W-40, or M1 5W-40.

I'm afraid that some sludge was created during these ARX treatments, and is blocking some oil passage or something.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else? I'm worried that I've screwed up my car by doing these ARX treatments!

P.S. During the second clean phase, I started to detect a faint odor of burning oil that would appear when the car had been idling for about a minute. It smelled quite strongly of this when I got home with the car running rough, but when you change the filter on this car, some oil gets spilled on the exhaust pipe, so that may be the source of this strong smell.

 

[Pablo]

Palut - you are pretty much a regular here, so you know this is isn't a regular occurrence.

My wild a$$ hunch is something else is going on that has nothing to do with the AutoRx.

Troubleshoot the car with an open mind.

In the mean time contact Frank of AutoRx.

 

[Frank]

Auto-Rx gets rid of sludge think you have a really dirty engine post again after you have finished rinse cycle.Please revisit www.auto-rx.com and read
FAQ & Proof of Value (might be a good idea to refresh your knowledge of applications for cleaning engine and how to stop seal leak,two different type applications and oil requirements) Auto-Rx works if you work it.

 

[loudist]

I would change oil filters immediatly, open up the used oil filter and see whats in it.
Report back to the board.

 

[Pablo]

quote:

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Hopefully, ARx won't damage anything while you learn to work it

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I know what you are saying...........NOT throwing rocks, but............hmmmmmmmmm........the, eh, answer quality is wanting for something......

quote:

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I would change oil filters immediatly, open up the used oil filter and see whats in it.
Report back to the board.

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THAT is an excellent suggestion!!

 

[phordguy]

Personally, I think I'd punt and change the oil if I found anything in that filter in 20 miles. And go again with clean oil and filter for safety's sake. Oil changes are cheap compared to the alternative of a expensive repair...

 

[uconn1150]

Not to be mean or anything, REMEMBER you bought it at 90k. Although you have used quality stuff since you purchased it, you don't know what went on for 90k miles! I guess it was sludged up. Stick to the application and keep us up to date.

 

[Frank]

Auto-Rx does no harm what is being seen is "sludge" laying on the metal ready to be rinsed off.
Please just follow the application than post.Dino Oil has minimal polarization for metal and thats why we want you to use it for rinse.

 

[Palut]

My internet connection was down most of the day, but I'm back.

I pulled the spark plugs today. They are all NGK ZFR5-F11, the OEM recommendation. From drivers side to passengers side, the plugs are numbered 1-4. The plugs, and the cap and rotor have about 4300 miles on them. The plug wires (OEM) have about 35000 miles on them. Plugs from cylinders 1, 3, and 4 looked fine, but number two was covered with black, sooty buildup. I have digital pictures of the plugs, but I don't know how to post them. If you want to see them, or would be willing to post them for me, PM me and I can e-mail them to you.

I replaced the number 2 plug with a new one, and replaced the plug wires with new ones bought from Schuck's (the dealer is closed Sundays). This did nothing for the missing/stumbling problem. If anything, it made it worse.

Since a new, unfouled plug didn't help, I'm thinking that this is due to something other than the oil. My dad and I are thinking of/hoping for a fuel injector issue, other than something deep inside the engine. The (probably original) fuel filter was replaced almost exactly 3000 miles ago. Maybe something came through and messed up an injector?

I'm taking it in to my mechanic tomorrow at 10:00, but unless he can definitively find and fix the problem by the end of the day tomorrow (Monday), it looks like my trip to Disneyland is off.

My friend who was going to go with me
is going to be VERY disappointed.

P.S. I really don't think the car was dirty at all when I bought it. Even after the first rinse phase was done, the oil looked like brand new. Looking under the valve cover from when I bought it, until when I started these ARX treatments I could see:
moving parts completely free of buildup, lubricated parts looking brand new
non-lubed parts with a red stain on them
non-moving parts with the red stain and a few tiny flecks of carbon, nothing that could be called buildup
not a trace of sludge

I've changed the oil on 4k or 5k mile intervals since I bought it, usually with CI-4 rated oils, and the oil has never turned very dark. Its never even approached black.

P.P.S. This is the car that had the LC flush run on it for 1500 miles. Here is a link to the only UOA done it it, 4k miles ago.

Edited to add UOA link.

[ December 13, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Palut ]

 

[Palut]

BTW, this car has seen FP in every tank for the last 7500 miles. The first 1000 or so were at 2oz/5 gal, 1oz/5 gal since then.

 

[satterfi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Palut:

Looking through the oil fill cap, I can see a little buildup on the stationary parts. This was not there before ARX, appeared grew a little during the first clean and rinse, and quickly tripled in size during the 2nd clean phase (only 1,000 miles!). Picture wet granulated sugar, only black.

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That doesn't sound good, especially for a VTEC engine.

Hopefully, ARx won't damage anything while you learn to work it.

 

[sprintman]

I'd be changing and checking the filter ASAP fwiw.

 

[Baddog]

If the timing belt hasn't been replaced by now it is possible that it has skipped a tooth.

 

[Russ]

quote:

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Originally posted by Palut:
The (probably original) fuel filter was replaced almost exactly 3000 miles ago.

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If that is indeed the case (original fuel filter left in for over 130,000 miles), then maybe this is a fuel pump issue (after all, fuel pumps will get tired from pushing gas through a seriously clogged up fuel filter; my girlfriend learned that expensive lesson this summer

).
Then again, an ignition problem could be a possibility. How about a bad plug wire (35,000 miles can wear at least one of them out, right?) on the #2 cylinder causing a miss (a picture of deposits on the plug would definitely help here)? The fact that aftermarket plug wires are making an engine run worse doesn't surprise me at all (especially if the wires are "cheap" enough). Regardless of the diagnosis of this symptom, I would swap them out for OE ones (unless, of course, the aftermarket wires are hardcore, high-end units that meet, or exceed OE specs).
How about a possibility of the coolant getting into oil somehow?

 

[axjohn]

When I had a 95 Integra, my car did the same thing at about 100,000 miles. Honda replaced (FREE) some sort of thingy in the distributor; not the distributor itself, but some sort of timing thing that was within the distributor.

A recall, evidently, and the car ran great after that until I sold it at 170,000 miles for exactly half what I paid for it!

 

[Russ]

quote:

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Originally posted by axjohn:
...some sort of thingy in the distributor; not the distributor itself, but some sort of timing thing that was within the distributor.

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Ignition Control Module?

 

[Palut]

Well, time for an update.

Special thanks to Moribundman, here is the spark plug. Both plugs have about 4300 miles on them. The dark one is from cylinder #2, the light one is from another cylinder: all but #2 look like the clean one.

I replaced the oil filter, and that didn't do anything to help the problem.

I took the car to my mechanic, and he ran a compression test. 175-180 on all cylinders. The manual says to expect around 170 on a new engine. We suspect a fuel injector problem. He thinks that the injector was stuck letting too much fuel in, and is now stuck letting in too little, since the new plug had no buildup on it. He suggested driving it to Cali. His exact words were "drive the **** out of it", and see if that helps unclog the injector.

So I drove to LA and back, the engine saw lots of V-TEC (it kicks in at about 4500 rpm) in the Siskiyous, and in the Angeles Nat. Forest. I got good mileage the whole trip, but the problem has not gone away. The engine comsumed about 1.3 quarts of oil during the 2200 miles, but I hear that these engines use a bit of oil while in V-TEC, so I'm not too concerned.

One thing that has improved, the sludge that I saw through the oil fill cap is completely gone, so I changed filters when I got back. Now the view through the fill cap is exactly like it was before the ARX.

Since Vince (my mechanic) is swamped until next week, and I don't want to go to the dealer, I'm going to be driving the car with the problem for 2 weeks, then replacing the injector. I really hope that's what the problem is. Any comments will be appreciated.

 

[sprintman]

Why not run a good fuel system/injector cleaner like Redline SI-1, Techron, etc till your mechanic can see you? You have nothing to lose IMO.

 

[Palut]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Why not run a good fuel system/injector cleaner like Redline SI-1, Techron, etc till your mechanic can see you? You have nothing to lose IMO.

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That's a good idea, but I just ran a bottle of Gumout Regane about 2 months ago. Is it okay to use that or Techron at the same time as FP?

 

[TR3-2001SE]

This sounds like the same problem I had with an Audi and injector cleaner fixed it. Techron I think is the answer unless it is too far gone. It may take several tanks full with techron. Keep us up to date. I am doing an auto-rx on a 97 honda accord so I am very interested in your results.