Are there any PAO oils?

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Originally Posted By: willyreid
Why do some of the Gibbs racing oils have such low (75,000lbs) shear strength??

Under what testing methodology?
whistle.gif
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: tig1
So what is it you want from an oil?



He and several others want an oil that is "REAL" synthetic. An oil that has a viscosity index of 750 with absolutely zero VII- because 50 years ago they were trouble. That same oil has to remain pump-able at absolute zero and exhibit no oxidation and "burn off" at temps that would only normally be witnessed on the surface of the sun. Said oil must possess an add pack that contains 200,000 ppm moly, zinc and phosphorus and have a starting TBN of 100. Even though this super oil is good for 200,000 mile drains, it's prospective buyers will run it for no more than 3000 miles, because "They are in the severe service category" and/or because it "Gets dark" too fast for their liking. Also, even though they have found their mythical unicorn tear filled lubricant, they will still use at least one, if not two grades over the manu's recommendation.



I can understand coming to a board such as this to learn. I can also understand wanting a superior product for you precious car... But what gets me is when people come here looking for answers but don't learn a darn thing and cling to old myths, prejudices and practices. What's the point of coming here to learn in the first place?

Full disclosure: I too was one of the idiotic noobs... You know... The Castrol "lawsuit".... I was full my self and confident of my superior knowledge. After all I was a "car guy" too and could make a few (unsupported) observations. However, somewhere along the line I realized that the people of this board and the sources that they were citing (you know- the manufacturers that spend 10's of millions in R&D) may not be wrong after all.


IMHO to much irony here. I don't see it as such a crime when someone wants a high-quality oil for the engine of his car (obviously some poeple seem quite upset with this). I really think that the ones involved in racing whose cars are far from stock (with engine output of more than 100-150HP per cilinder having spent the corresponding amount of cash in bringing their cars to such level of performance ) know that quality matters and not all oils that meet manufacturer's specs and have ACEA approvals "are the same", nor all they would be able to handle the stress of a race engine - in fact very few of them can...
I have nothing against the use of cheaper basestocks in formulation of modern oils, but I'm ABSOLUTELY AGAINST the use of mainly crude base in the formulation of oils labeled as "fully synthetic", I think this is luying to the customers. I think it's not a crime when someone pays a top $ for a presumably "full synthetic" oil to require getting what he pays for, not a hydrocracked dyno which now supposedly has qualities "similar to the real synthetic", I just want the product I pay for, nothing more.
 
I never cease to be amazed at the argument that Group III crude derived synthetics are not "true" synthetics and only PAO is. It shows a lack of education regarding the actual performance levels of each group. it is the same marketing game that has been going on way too long. I don't care if the base oil is made from crude, NG, ethylene gas, or snake snot. As long as it performs to the level that it is claimed, then who cares?
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I never cease to be amazed at the argument that Group III crude derived synthetics are not "true" synthetics and only PAO is. It shows a lack of education regarding the actual performance levels of each group. it is the same marketing game that has been going on way too long. I don't care if the base oil is made from crude, NG, ethylene gas, or snake snot. As long as it performs to the level that it is claimed, then who cares?


I don't say you must care about anything, only say that IMO it would be better when buying a full synthetic to buy REAL lab-made full synthetic oil, achieved from synthetic sources and not the cheeper hydrocracked mineral group3 oils. A mineral oil is mineral oil (even if hydrocracked) and I don't care how someone say that it performs, I think a correct manufacturer must call the things with their proper names and not luying to his customers.
A mayonnaise could be made to achieve similar taste, consistency and color as caviar but it still isn't real caviar and it would be incorrect to call it caviar just because someone wants to sell it as such.
 
Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
I don't say you must care about anything, only say that IMO it would be better when buying a full synthetic to buy REAL lab-made full synthetic oil, achieved from synthetic sources and not the cheeper hydrocracked mineral group3 oils. A mineral oil is mineral oil (even if hydrocracked) and I don't care how someone say that it performs, I think a correct manufacturer must call the things with their proper names and not luying to his customers.
A mayonnaise could be made to achieve similar taste, consistency and color as caviar but it still isn't real caviar and it would be incorrect to call it caviar just because someone wants to sell it as such.


So if Mobil 1 is a Group III/PAO blend, what would be improved by having an all-PAO formulation? What does the Group III portion do to degrade the properties of the finished product?

Also, what do you think of GTL oils?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So if Mobil 1 is a Group III/PAO blend, what would be improved by having an all-PAO formulation? What does the Group III portion do to degrade the properties of the finished product?

Also, what do you think of GTL oils?


It seems you didn't read my post - I don't say an all-PAO Mobil 1 would be better (or worst), in that case I would only say that an all PAO Mobil 1 would be a real synthetic group 4 oil, nothing more, but nothing less.
On the other hand maybe for a granny driven grocery-getter a group 3 oil would be o.k, but for a track driven performance car with 500HP from 2000cc I frankly prefere a REAL synthetic oil like Red Line or Amsoil than a group 3 visom Mobil 1. Believe me, I know what I'm speaking about.
 
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I never cease to be amazed at the argument that Group III crude derived synthetics are not "true" synthetics and only PAO is. It shows a lack of education regarding the actual performance levels of each group. it is the same marketing game that has been going on way too long. I don't care if the base oil is made from crude, NG, ethylene gas, or snake snot. As long as it performs to the level that it is claimed, then who cares?


While I tend to agree with you, the basis for the controversy is not based on performance. In the chemical industry (from which I came), a "synthetic" material is one derived from "synthesis". Synthesis is a process and has nothing to do with where the starting raw materials came from, or the performance of the finished product.

PAOs, esters, ANs, and PAGs are clearly made by a synthesis process, while Group I and Group II mineral oils are clearly made by a refining process and therefore not "synthetic". Group IIIs are a gray area in that they are refined, but also hydrocracked. Hydrocracking breaks and rearranges most (>90%) of the starting molecules which refining does not, and since the molecules have been changed into new molecules rather than simply purified, many consider hydrocracking to be a synthesis process. Others consider it to be just a more severe refining process. Hence the continued controversy.

While the chemical industry considers synthetic materials to be derived from a synthesis process, the lubricants industry (from which I also came) has chosen to accept the term to be defined by a performance level (or at least chose not to challenge the decision of the NAD back in 1999). The performance level definition is much more profitable to the lubricants industry because it allows them to capitalize on the high performance image associated with the term "synthetic" while using a much lower cost base oil.

With regard to performance, most Group III, and especially Group III+ base oils perform on par with PAOs in those performance categories relevant to motor oils. Each has some pluses and minuses, but both when properly additized make motor oils that are virtually indistinguishable in real world performance. Some performance differences may be apparent in extreme environments, but these are not relevant to the vast majority of consumers. In other words, your engine likely doesn't know the difference.

With regard to the source of base oil raw materials, mineral oils, PAOs, most esters, ANs, and Group IIIs all trace back to crude oil. It's just a matter of how many steps there are in the processing from start to finish.

And finally, since the definition of synthetic base oils differs from conventional base oils by a single VI point, the term has been relegated to a marketing term with little meaning with respect to motor oil performance. If you want to compare performance, look at the certifications and approvals the oil carries, not the marketing fluff on the labels.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
It seems you didn't read my post - I don't say an all-PAO Mobil 1 would be better (or worst), in that case I would only say that an all PAO Mobil 1 would be a real synthetic group 4 oil, nothing more, but nothing less.
On the other hand maybe for a granny driven grocery-getter a group 3 oil would be o.k, but for a track driven performance car with 500HP from 2000cc I frankly prefer a REAL synthetic oil like Red Line or Amsoil than a group 3 visom Mobil 1. Believe me, I know what I'm speaking about.


Right. So what does your preference get you then?

And that's good you know what you're talking about, you can explain it to me then.
 
My take on it:

Mobil says their grp III Visom can perform to the equivalence of an all pao base stock,BUT grp III base stocks are cheaper. It's Mobil's way of selling a cheaper product at the price of a premium product,which means more $$ profit for Mobil. It's all about money/higher profits. I'm not saying it's an inferior product,just a cheaper to produce product being sold as an expensive product.

Anyway,that's the best way I can understand it.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
My take on it:

Mobil says their grp III Visom can perform to the equivalence of an all pao base stock,BUT grp III base stocks are cheaper. It's Mobil's way of selling a cheaper product at the price of a premium product,which means more $$ profit for Mobil. It's all about money/higher profits. I'm not saying it's an inferior product,just a cheaper to produce product being sold as an expensive product.

Anyway,that's the best way I can understand it.


I think you got it right.
 
Hi,
Tom said this and IMO has it right!!!

Starts
And finally, since the definition of synthetic base oils differs from conventional base oils by a single VI point, the term has been relegated to a marketing term with little meaning with respect to motor oil performance. If you want to compare performance, look at the certifications and approvals the oil carries, not the marketing fluff on the labels.

Tom NJ
Ends

And please note the following - from a reliable source in 1959

Polyolefins
Of historic importance were the polyolefins first
prepared on a large scale in this country in the
1930’s and in Germany during World War II.
When ethylene or propylene was heated with an
acid catalyst under pressure, the process knowna s
polymerization set in which resulted in the formation
of long hydrocarbonc hains:
3CHz----CH2-CH.,-CHu-CH.~-CH.,-CH2----CH
As expected these chains or polymers resembled
the petroleum oils then in use. Because they represented
a reasonably priced petroleum supplement
the polyolefins were used extensively by the Germans
in World War If. Later researches have
shown that olefins can be polymerized with other
kinds of catalysts and also without catalysts at
higher temperatures and pressures. Unfortunately
there are many reaction variables influencing both
the yield and the quality of the product in addition
to which only certain olefin stocks can be polymerized
economically. Olefin polymers are not
presently a large factor in the synthetic lubricant
held but the experience gained in those researches
has provided some fundamental structural guides
applicable in many other areas.

Polyalkylene Glycols
Polymers of ethylene-, propylene-, and higher
alkyl ethers, developed commercially more than a
decade ago, are called the polyalkylene glycol lubricants.
The raw materials for their synthesis are
the same petroleum-derived olefins used in polyolelin
lubricants. In this case the olefin is first oxidized
by any one of a wide variety of processes to
the cyclic ether:
alkylene ether
(o)
CH.~ ~-- CH.e ) CHu -- CH.~
\/
0
tion of physical properties has led to wide industrial
use of polyglycol lubricants in a variety of
applications (hydraulic fluids, heat-transfer media,
glass manufacturing machinery). The polyalkylene
oxide chain is subject to thermal and oxidative attack
at temperatures at which jet aircraft presently
operate; thus polyalkylene glycol fluids themselves
are unsuitable for such high temperature operation.
However polyalkylene glycols have been used as
starting materials in the preparation of synthetic
ester jet lubricants which are discussed in the following
section.

I can confirm the German input form the 1930s and indeed some of these lubricant base structures exist today even though the original formulators are well gone. I have some knowledge of this

So,IMO we must accept that there is no "best" lubricant, many Boutique lubricants are well overpriced and over rated and over Merketed as well. As well many mineral lubricants have been doing a great job for decades as they have evolved - ask the trucking Industry!

And back to Tom's comment - believe it IMO
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn


Right. So what does your preference get you then?

And that's good you know what you're talking about, you can explain it to me then.


Man, it's your car and your money, you're free to use whatever oil you feel confident with, I'm only sharing my point of view, nothing more.
When used on track (or whatever race conditions) an engine is run in the upper zone of the rev counter, sometimes above 8000rpm, for prolonged periods. In these circumstances the oil's temperature can reach 280 degrees Fahrenheit and even more in a few minutes. If you think a hydrocracked group 3 oil can handle the situacion maintaining some oil pressure and stable oil film the same as a real synthetic PAO-Ester oil it's up to you, I know esters to be more heat resistent with stronger oil film than any other base stock.
I've found that in the automotive world you really get what you pay for and almost always more expensive = better.
 
Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Originally Posted By: kschachn


Right. So what does your preference get you then?

And that's good you know what you're talking about, you can explain it to me then.


Man, it's your car and your money, you're free to use whatever oil you feel confident with, I'm only sharing my point of view, nothing more.
When used on track (or whatever race conditions) an engine is run in the upper zone of the rev counter, sometimes above 8000rpm, for prolonged periods. In these circumstances the oil's temperature can reach 280 degrees Fahrenheit and even more in a few minutes. If you think a hydrocracked group 3 oil can handle the situacion maintaining some oil pressure and stable oil film the same as a real synthetic PAO-Ester oil it's up to you, I know esters to be more heat resistent with stronger oil film than any other base stock.
I've found that in the automotive world you really get what you pay for and almost always more expensive = better.



After having many conversations with many different manufacturers 280f is NOT hot for synthetic oils,including group 3 formulated ones. In fact when m1 was the recommendation by the SRT division they laughed at the mentio of 300f.
And we have a member here who ran the m1 0w-40 when it was still a visom formulation and his used oil analysis were stellar. Those samples were taken after running laps at homestead on public track days as well as finishing out the mileage on the interval.
So your opinion is just that. And worth exactly what we paid for it.
Absolutely nothing.
The used oil analysis data doesn't confirm your assertions.
But don't let facts and data change your mind. Not when you've got feelings to count on.
Absurd nonsense.
It's funny. The Porsche a-40 cert is a pretty tough one to meet. Yet there is nothing that requires the oil contain only pao and poe.
So if Porsche doesn't think it's important neither do I. In fact they state any certified product is equal in performance to any other certified product n
And again wasn't m1 their factory fill.
So apparently they don't "feel" as you do. But I suppose they only judge the products they certify with actual performance testing protocols. What are they when "feelings" can be used instead.
Hilarious.
 
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I never cease to be amazed at the argument that Group III crude derived synthetics are not "true" synthetics and only PAO is. It shows a lack of education regarding the actual performance levels of each group.

Not at all. Some formulators agree that only Group IV and V oils are synthetics. Do they lack education? Admitting that Group III oils can perform just as well and can meet all the same certifications (which I freely admit) is not the same thing as denying that Group III oils are synthetics.

I'm not one to be saying that Group III oils shouldn't be labelled as synthetic. But, I'm also not going to tell people that a lay person must consider Group III, IV, and V as one big group, with the subgroups only existing for chemists.

Incidentally with respect to Group III and pricing and whether an oil company makes more money by selling Group III synthetics versus Group IV or V, take a look at historical pricing. Mobil conventional has increased by a much higher percentage over the years than has Mobil 1.

Buy an oil with the certifications you seek and watch your pricing.
 
But Group V is nothing more than everything that doesn't fit into Group I - Group IV. That even includes non synthetics.

Oh, I do watch my pricing. Especially since I go thru several drums of motor oil a year along with gear lube and 20-30 tubes of grease minimum. While I was swayed early on with the "true" synthetic marketing gig, I have long since gotten off the OCD wagon regarding synthetics vs faux synthetics vs conventional. I use a blend of PAO (25%) and Group II+ in my commercial trucks, and a PAO (25%) and Grp III for my personal vehicles. The price is very cost effective and comparable to most any pricing off the store shelves. But then, that might be the bulk commercial pricing that keeps the price I am charged lower than similar products on the shelf. And it is especially nice that they bring it to my place for free and throw in free oil sample kits and analysis with the orders. Add that all up, and nothing on the shelf appeals to me from a price standpoint.
 
I have not been much of a fan of Mobil but it is my perception Mobil is forcing the competition to keep prices low. IMO a jug of M1 at Wally's is a real bargain and of course SOPUS and Castrol are forced to meet it since Mobil is already the king of over the counter synthetics.

It is clear Mobil has found ways to make M1 more economically over the years but the price hasn't gone up much either relative to other items.

JMO.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: willyreid
Why do some of the Gibbs racing oils have such low (75,000lbs) shear strength??

Under what testing methodology?
whistle.gif



My bad, I got Joe Gibbs and Brad Penn mixed up again, but I was pretty close. ALS Tribology in Sparks Nevada did the "wear testing" with the results in PSI. Actually, of the tested Joe Gibbs oils, the HR4 Hot Rod oil was listed in the 'good" at 86,270 psi, but the JG Nascar racing oil hit 95,543. Still, the best JG oil is lower than the Chevron supreme 5w/30 I use in my Toyota. The BPenn oils tested were in the 72,000 psi range (moderate protection).

This is from a Corvette forum where one of the people had a bunch of popular oils tested on his dime at the above Nevada tester. Fairly recent. About a thlrd of the way down, after quite a bit of verbage on his philosophy of oil, begins the results of the actual testing, broken down into level of protection. Starting with Outstanding-

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-t...-test-data.html

I don't know if that answers your question. Maybe you or others' will comment on the apparent validity or usefulness of the testing info.
 
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Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Originally Posted By: kschachn


Right. So what does your preference get you then?

And that's good you know what you're talking about, you can explain it to me then.


Man, it's your car and your money, you're free to use whatever oil you feel confident with, I'm only sharing my point of view, nothing more.
When used on track (or whatever race conditions) an engine is run in the upper zone of the rev counter, sometimes above 8000rpm, for prolonged periods. In these circumstances the oil's temperature can reach 280 degrees Fahrenheit and even more in a few minutes. If you think a hydrocracked group 3 oil can handle the situacion maintaining some oil pressure and stable oil film the same as a real synthetic PAO-Ester oil it's up to you, I know esters to be more heat resistent with stronger oil film than any other base stock.
I've found that in the automotive world you really get what you pay for and almost always more expensive = better.



After having many conversations with many different manufacturers 280f is NOT hot for synthetic oils,including group 3 formulated ones. In fact when m1 was the recommendation by the SRT division they laughed at the mentio of 300f.
And we have a member here who ran the m1 0w-40 when it was still a visom formulation and his used oil analysis were stellar. Those samples were taken after running laps at homestead on public track days as well as finishing out the mileage on the interval.
So your opinion is just that. And worth exactly what we paid for it.
Absolutely nothing.
The used oil analysis data doesn't confirm your assertions.
But don't let facts and data change your mind. Not when you've got feelings to count on.
Absurd nonsense.
It's funny. The Porsche a-40 cert is a pretty tough one to meet. Yet there is nothing that requires the oil contain only pao and poe.
So if Porsche doesn't think it's important neither do I. In fact they state any certified product is equal in performance to any other certified product n
And again wasn't m1 their factory fill.
So apparently they don't "feel" as you do. But I suppose they only judge the products they certify with actual performance testing protocols. What are they when "feelings" can be used instead.
Hilarious.


Really won't lose my time arguing with somebody that gives as an example for the level of performance in race conditions of an oil the many recomendation it has as a factory fill...Educated people know how factory fills and manufacturer's recomendations are achieved - always winning the lowest bidder. BMW was recomending Castrol for many years, now it recomends Shell for the same cars... People like you - lovers of the "factory recomendations" were praising Castrol as "the best" oil for BMW and "the only one suitable" for these engines because it's "factory fill", now the "best oil" for the same cars results being Shell...
Reading your post I'm sure you've never stepped on a track, that's why total rubbish like "factory fills", "manufacturer's recomendations", "certifications", "approvals" and so on things matter so much for you. To much reading and no real life experience only makes you a bookworm and a forum/keyboard "expert", but not a real authority in the matter we are discussing. I have raced with group 3 hydrocracked oils (Mobil 1 - the great "factory fill" for so many brands included) and with some more expensive alternatives as Red Line and I've made my REAL LIFE conclusions. Some days ago I talked with a Subaru guy (quite a qualified Subaru mechanic and racer also) who told me that his 500HP Impreza STI went through several engines and differentials untill he began using Red Line products - he swears he won't use anything else in his life, although Red Line products are golden-prised here and very hard to find. I know many people in Subaru comunity that have had many engine and diff related problems while using "factory fills" and "manufacturer's recomendations" untill they began using red Line and other real synthetics. For me the opinion of a man that opens thousands of engines is more important than the opinion of someone that gives as an example for the quality of an oil its manucture's approvals.

P.S. One advice - it's not a great idea to reach 280F ((and more!) in your engine with whatever oil just because someone have said some things on a website.
 
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
But Group V is nothing more than everything that doesn't fit into Group I - Group IV. That even includes non synthetics.

True, but generally, one is thinking of something like Red Line or Motul when they're talking about Group V.

As for watching pricing, I was painting a broader brush, there. I know full well that you watch pricing and what you buy, since it would be difficult in your business not to.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: willyreid
I don't know if that answers your question. Maybe you or others' will comment on the apparent validity or usefulness of the testing info.

It does, and that's what I was afraid of. It's been tossed about a lot here and isn't terribly useful.

Thebimmerfan: You do know that plenty of racing series do use off the shelf oils, right? Not all racing in Europe involves custom engines any more than all racing in North America uses 20w-50 and nitromethane.
 
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