Any low cal high mag high zinc 5w40's out there?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Imp4
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
One approach here could be to look for dexos2 oils,

Why?
Why does this make more sense than running the OEM spec?
Dexos2 is designed, formulated, and tested for diesel engines.
Data please!
And please don't say 'thats what they do in Europe' because we both know that the fuel quality is much different and that it's a straw man argument.
Looking forward to your response!

First of all, you come off as a total jerk and I'm looking forward to you dropping the grating attitude.
The OPer is interested in minimizing LSPI and using 5W40, so I let him know that the dexos2 standard has an LSPI test like dexos1 Gen 2 and that there are oils in the grade he prefers with the dexos2 license. dexos2 is, indeed, a mid/low SAPS standard and the OPer might have to be careful about OCIs, but I have used M1 5W30 ESP with 0.6% SAPS in the past for modest OCIs and my engine is intact after running US gasoline. LSPI is not an issue in diesel engines, so the mere fact that dexos2 includes an LSPI test proves that it is not a diesel-only standard.
If you'd like to learn about dexos2 having an LSPI test, I started a thread on that topic a while ago and you are welcome to look it up.
I am not planning to respond to you in the future because I refuse to reward the bad behavior of a wannabe internet bully.
 
Originally Posted By: Imp4
Hey, InhalingBullets, I think I lifted the best statement for your position from the Machinerylubrication article. It states:
Quote:
The best protection against wear is probably a product that is a little thicker (such as SAE 10W-30 or 15W-40) and has more antiwear additives than the oils that support the warranty. The best oil for your vehicle depends on your driving habits, the age of your engine and the climate you drive in, but it is not necessarily the type of oil specified in the owner’s manual or stamped on the dipstick.

This is actually very interesting because even if we were to take it as true for the sake of the discussion, we would then also need to take as true the statement that internal engine wear, in the preponderance of circumstances, is not going to be the failure mode that shortens the life of the engine.

Basically, off spec, thicker oil is a solution looking for a problem.

There. I said it!

And, depending on how off spec it is, it can actually lead to more instances of LSPI and significant engine damage.

How do we know this? We know this because the D1G2 spec oil has been specifically formulated to address LSPI.

Now if we say we want to go off spec 'just cuz'. Well, that's fine, but please don't say that you would go off spec to preserve the life of the engine in any appreciable form that would impact the ownership experience.

Looking forward to your response!


"Basically, off spec, thicker oil is a solution looking for a problem" That is your opinion is it not? where is the data to back that up? Aside from extremely cold environments, is there a single documented instance of proof where use of a thicker grade oil has caused engine failure as your statement implies?

Regardless of any data produced there is going to be counter data that proves or disproves either position whether you want engine protection or maintaining or meeting an emissions standard. Of course the question is can you have both? I don't know. The only way to prove or disprove that thicker or thinner oil is better is to conduct studies that no-one is willing to invest in. That would require multiple engines in identical conditions run for infinite hours using various oils and viscosities with thousands of oil analysis to reveal the comparative wear data. That said I do not believe that manufacturers always have the consumers best interest in mind nor do they do they do the life cycle testing we expect them to invest in. If the engineers did half of the research and testing we expect, we would not have current issues like Takata air bags, Cummins diesel water pumps starting fires, FCA 3.6 burnt exhaust valves, Harley M8 oil pump issues etc. I am in no way saying that the engineers aren't doing their job, we all know that they are under a totally different kind of pressure from the top to get things done. I have been in meetings with representatives from every US car manufacturer addressing issues with multiple makes and models that take years to get resolved because the resources are not provided to fix the problems. True, I don't trust any of them and it likely is represented in my words but when I spend my hard earned money on something that my life depends on I expect that the manufacturer would put in the respective amount of care into it.

So what we are left with is to conduct our own testing in our own conditions and base our practices on those results. Unfortunately environmental conditions are presented in the results that cannot be quantified. I live in Texas and what works/tests well for me may not be the same for someone in the north and vice versa.

How about this for a wierd oil recommendation: my motorcycle....use semi-syn 20w-40 or 15w-60 synthetic.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: JAG
What I want to know is, in your opinion, what affects does increasing the viscosity have in an engine, assuming reasonable ambient temperatures and typical driving?


Good question.
I'll answer it in two parts, and it is critical to not separate the two.

Part 1
In and of itself, increased viscosity would initially impart a slight decrease in wear while increasing fuel consumption, decreasing horsepower, decreasing rev response, and increasing heat.
As viscosity continues to climb, the aforementioned characteristics would trend in the same directions until a critical point in which the hydrodynamic wedge can no longer be maintained between mechanical components and component failure would be the result.

Part 2
If the attempt is made to only slightly increase viscosity, with the goal of reducing wear, the user must be careful that they are not imparting other, more harmful outcomes (LSPI) as part of the effort to decrease wear.

What was suggested earlier in the thread was to move to a Dexos2 oil, which is designed for diesel engines.(Please don't bring up European specs without also noting the significant differences in fuel as well.)

From an overall engine health and longevity perspective, if the incidents of LSPI become more prevalent with the off spec Dexos2 oil, then any anti-wear benefit that may be realized would be offset because of the newly created pre ignition conditions.

In short, the medicine being proposed here in the form of the Dexos2 spec oil is likely more harmful that the original perceived ailment of internal engine wear.

Said another way, I'll surely take an negligible increase in engine wear in order to decrease instances of LSPI.

A D1G2 oil is the most appropriate oil for the application.

Looking forward to your response!
 
Another way to think big picture is as follows:

A man is hungry and asks for food and the response is to hit him over the head and kill him.

That is not a better outcome, even though he is not hungry any more.
 
Originally Posted By: Imp4
Think big picture here folks.

If your medicine causes worse outcomes than your ailment, maybe it's not worth while!


That is a good point!

I know it's off topic but do a little research on Calcium supplements. THere has never been a study prove that they preserve or increase bone density and it gets much worse.
 
Calcium supplements require concurrent vitamin D for optimal absorption.

And the very best way to get calcium is not through supplements but as part of your regular diet.

Got milk?
(Not coincidentally also high in vitamin D)
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: VirtusProbi
I don't even have to see the posts to figure out that somebody isn't going to be around here too long.

Sorry to hear that you're planning on heading out. It's actually a rather good discussion.

I would prefer that you read back a page or two and interpret the discussion. It a pretty fair back and forth.

Maybe we could come to mutual understanding on a few things.

Looking forward to your response!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Imp4
Dexos2 is designed, formulated, and tested for diesel engines.

That's not the case. And what they do in Europe is relevant, despite fuel differences, because dexos2 wasn't designed, formulated, and tested for diesel engines. C3 type oils are technically dual purpose oils, and dexos2 was derived from C3. The relevant ACEA publications explain the purpose of each sequence.

Now, if someone is willing (or stubborn enough) to try an out of spec oil and is cognizant of potential pitfalls, well reasoned choices can still be made. Aside from the advice to follow the specification and leave well enough alone, there are capable HDEOs and dexos2 oils available to the OP.

If it were me, and I insisted upon leaving the specification, given the OP's location, an E7, E9 or an E6 HDEO might be the most cost effective option, outside of a formal dexos1 5w-30. Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 and Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 will be priced similarly, assuming he has access to a distributor for the latter, for instance.
 
Originally Posted By: Imp4

And please don't say 'thats what they do in Europe' because we both know that the fuel quality is much different


Not any more.

There is very little difference between European gasoline and US gasoline now.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
If it were me, and I insisted upon leaving the specification, given the OP's location, an E7, E9 or an E6 HDEO might be the most cost effective option, outside of a formal dexos1 5w-30

If it were you Garak, would you insist on leaving the spec?
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
.
Not any more.

There is very little difference between European gasoline and US gasoline now.


Data please!
 
Originally Posted By: Imp4
If it were you Garak, would you insist on leaving the spec?

I've gone off spec before, but to answer that question, I'd have to know more. How much warranty would be left on the engine, and how problematic are these engines? I ventured off to 5w-40 in my G37 with around a year of warranty left, but the engine wasn't consuming oil, leaking oil, or making strange sounds and is known rather reliable.

If I had concerns about warranty (i.e. an unreliable engine family, or even very early in the warranty), I'd want to stick to a dexos1 5w-30, and staying within spec is usually a safe answer. From a practical standpoint, aside from any warranty hair splitting, I'd be fully confident in a dexos2 option or a high magnesium HDEO. My biggest issue against dexos2 would be container size and cost here, with every dexos2 option I've seen in the wild in 1 litre bottles, with a price north of $11 a litre. I can get synthetic HDEOs at half that any day of the week, and a dexos1 5w-30 is commonly on sale enough at our Walmarts and Canadian Tires at a similar cost.

Now, I would insist on leaving the spec if we saw a trail of failed engines of this family on ordinary dexos1 oils....
 
Originally Posted By: Imp4
Originally Posted By: Linctex
.
Not any more.

There is very little difference between European gasoline and US gasoline now.


Data please!


I can't speak for every other county in Europe, but in the UK all of our fuel is What ppm is your fuel?
 
In North America, it's still high. We're supposed to "average" to be ULSG, but there's so much hand waving in both Canada's and the American standards, they're almost meaningless.
wink.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
vw504/507 vs dexos1 gen 3 with high Sulphur fuel
Replies
3
Views
506
Nesterenko
V
  • Locked
Full synthetic 0W40 or 5W40’s with both high moly and high boron additive pack?
2
Replies
20
Views
4K
M56959
M
Oil for 2022 Kona N - LSPI or wear?
Replies
9
Views
3K
bhvrdr
Y
ACEA A3/B4 oils still relevant in 2024 for Turbo GDI 'High performance' Engines? - Hyundai ElantraN
2
Replies
32
Views
4K
edyvw
T
High moly, low calcium 0w40/5w40 options?
Replies
4
Views
2K
Greasymechtech
Back
Top