Another motorcraft failure

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


It's my understanding it was their filters - motorcraft filters manufactured by Purolator - still the OEM filter. If a TSB is issued because the OEM filter media is failing and years later the filter media is still failing in the same way/location...I'm sorry that's on Ford execs. I'm not suggesting what others suggested, namely there's been bribery, I think it's just laziness and/or incompetence. The claims being made about the DCT are eye opening and shine a spotlight on a corporation with big internal problems where problems are covered up rather than dealt with immediately or at least not dealt with until it becomes less expensive to deal with the problem than allow it to continue. Meanwhile, real people are getting shafted.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


It's my understanding it was their filters - motorcraft filters manufactured by Purolator - still the OEM filter. If a TSB is issued because the OEM filter media is failing and years later the filter media is still failing in the same way/location...I'm sorry that's on Ford execs. I'm not suggesting what others suggested, namely there's been bribery, I think it's just laziness and/or incompetence. The claims being made about the DCT are eye opening and shine a spotlight on a corporation with big internal problems where problems are covered up rather than dealt with immediately or at least not dealt with until it becomes less expensive to deal with the problem than allow it to continue. Meanwhile, real people are getting shafted.
The interesting thing is, the OEM Ford filters, from the factory, are Champ made filters! If the Purolator made MCs are so good, then why doesn't Ford use them on brand new engines?? I have several Ford-built vehicles (in my sig), but they wouldn't be my first choice in a new car, er, TRUCK (since that's all they build now).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


The statement in red never happened since more tears have occurred since Ford's adoption of USCAR-36.

A few guys here emailed Motorcraft reporting torn filters, and they said they never heard anything back. Just crickets like the way Purolator addressed the situation.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by bullwinkle
Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


It's my understanding it was their filters - motorcraft filters manufactured by Purolator - still the OEM filter. If a TSB is issued because the OEM filter media is failing and years later the filter media is still failing in the same way/location...I'm sorry that's on Ford execs. I'm not suggesting what others suggested, namely there's been bribery, I think it's just laziness and/or incompetence. The claims being made about the DCT are eye opening and shine a spotlight on a corporation with big internal problems where problems are covered up rather than dealt with immediately or at least not dealt with until it becomes less expensive to deal with the problem than allow it to continue. Meanwhile, real people are getting shafted.
The interesting thing is, the OEM Ford filters, from the factory, are Champ made filters! If the Purolator made MCs are so good, then why doesn't Ford use them on brand new engines?? I have several Ford-built vehicles (in my sig), but they wouldn't be my first choice in a new car, er, TRUCK (since that's all they build now).


Regardless of what is used from the factory, Motorcraft is still Ford's OEM and MC filters probably represents the vast majority of filters being used by dealerships doing oil/filter changes on Ford/Lincoln vehicles. If this filter issue is relatively widespread and has been going on for years then Ford is to blame.

I remember reading an article about 10 years ago about how tyrannical Toyota's contracts were with suppliers. Harsh penalties for parts that did not meet spec or if there were too many defects. Management of the supply chain IS the auto manufacture's responsibility. A vehicle is only as good as the weakest part being used to manufacture it.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted by dnewton3
...

Root cause analysis is of note there. I've done this kind of work in my job as a line Quality Engineer. IMO there is something in the manufacturing process that is causing the issue. I'm not intimately familiar with the process...its not like pressure and flow have the ability to cause this failure at the same location each time. They are symptom that reveals the weakness, they are not the root cause...

Until then, well, it's just the typical BITOG conjecture.


Very true and this was what i was alluding to in a previous post, that this lateral force had to be applied at or near the location of that tear during processing:

Originally Posted by Molakule
Originally Posted by mpgo4th
"...There is a small tear at the bottom of one of the pleats near the glued joint. I thought the pleat came unglued but after moving it aside it's definitely a tear."

I am not trying to second guess you but a tear is usually caused by a 'lateral" force.

Example. Take a piece of paper and fold it lengthwise.Tearing it takes a twisting force applied "crosswise"or perpendicular to the fold.

I can understand a pleat-glue end-cap separation there at this location if the processing machinery didn't press the fold into the adhesive before it set,

But an actual "tear" seems to indicate that in processing a last minute lateral force was applied.

 

[4WD]

We have all made an attempt to micrometer this brick.
But whatever goes on inside the white can goes on inside other cans we don't find failures in.
What I can say that is for sure different is how easy it is to cut one open and tear the pleat by hand. Thin/weak paper - not even a blend.
By that alone - tossed several in the trash. Better filters for the same money (or buck or two more) all day long.

 

[Job]

i bought a loaf of bread, two because it was Costco. Mid loaf I discovered a black area with swirls of white, looking as if something nasty fell in the dough. Very disgusting since it had been eaten up to that point including some white swirl. I took it back. I didn't blame Costco.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
i bought a loaf of bread, two because it was Costco. Mid loaf I discovered a black area with swirls of white, looking as if something nasty fell in the dough. Very disgusting since it had been eaten up to that point including some white swirl. I took it back. I didn't blame Costco.

Which is fine if it was Wonder Bread. This is Costco brand bread.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
i bought a loaf of bread, two because it was Costco. Mid loaf I discovered a black area with swirls of white, looking as if something nasty fell in the dough. Very disgusting since it had been eaten up to that point including some white swirl. I took it back. I didn't blame Costco.


I don't understand...why would you not blame Costco? They sold it to you and they are responsible for what they sell? Especially because it's THEIR BRAND that they are selling! Ford choses their suppliers and it is Ford's responsibility to monitor and correct problems with those suppliers - especially when they are making products with Ford's (Motorcraft) name on them.

This, the DCT and the paint problems are more like - Costco has been getting complaints about its bread for 6 months now and they even ordered all the bread to be recalled. Costco did not however contact their baker to figure out what's going on and the next week a new shipment of bread came in with the same problem and Costco happily put the bread out for purchase because Costco execs decided not everyone will complain and it's just too much trouble to have to contact the baker and work this out. It's not until bread sales dip sharply that Costco finally decides to contact the baker but they still refuse to refund any money for those customers who already bought the bread because they didn't make it?? That would be absolutely ridiculous!

 

[69Torino]

Walmart and local auto parts stores are a very small market share of total Motorcraft oil filters sold, I would imagine. My money says the dealerships, who are obligated to use OEM parts due to franchise agreement, are the bulk revenue for Motorcraft filters. Oil, air, trans, fuel, and cabin.

So I highly doubt that a few garage scientists worry them with their findings and internet whistle blowing. Whether right or wrong, it is what it is. Ford dealers will always continue to screw on Motorcraft filters, and now Omnicraft, on off-brand vehicles, on everything in the shop regardless of the (small percentage of) people who cut filters open and discuss their inequities.

 

[69Torino]

In the free enterprise system, you do have a choice.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by 69Torino
Walmart and local auto parts stores are a very small market share of total Motorcraft oil filters sold, I would imagine. My money says the dealerships, who are obligated to use OEM parts due to franchise agreement, are the bulk revenue for Motorcraft filters. Oil, air, trans, fuel, and cabin.

So I highly doubt that a few garage scientists worry them with their findings and internet whistle blowing. Whether right or wrong, it is what it is. Ford dealers will always continue to screw on Motorcraft filters, and now Omnicraft, on off-brand vehicles, on everything in the shop regardless of the (small percentage of) people who cut filters open and discuss their inequities.


Sure but the plot does thicken when Ford has to issue a TSB for filter media clogging the variable valve timing...

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by 69Torino
In the free enterprise system, you do have a choice.


Absolutely, as I said before I want to like Ford and they have some compelling products but they're just too shady for me. They will continue to sell nearly a million trucks per year just fine without my purchase.

 

[Job]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


The statement in red never happened since more tears have occurred since Ford's adoption of USCAR-36.

A few guys here emailed Motorcraft reporting torn filters, and they said they never heard anything back. Just crickets like the way Purolator addressed the situation.

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


The statement in red never happened since more tears have occurred since Ford's adoption of USCAR-36.

A few guys here emailed Motorcraft reporting torn filters, and they said they never heard anything back. Just crickets like the way Purolator addressed the situation.


They will be all over it is in the future. Knew should be know, what is this grammar class? Have no idea what you are talking about it never happened because it is in the future. IF they find out my opinion is they will be all over it since they are buying the filters.

My bread wasn't made by Costco just as Ford doesn't make MC filters. What are they supposed to do, cut open each one and weld it back together. Should Costco open each loaf and go through the slices? Now if a Ford factory made the filters it is a different story. This one is for the other talk about my bread analogy not yours.

 

[69Torino]

Originally Posted by PWMDMD
Originally Posted by 69Torino
Walmart and local auto parts stores are a very small market share of total Motorcraft oil filters sold, I would imagine. My money says the dealerships, who are obligated to use OEM parts due to franchise agreement, are the bulk revenue for Motorcraft filters. Oil, air, trans, fuel, and cabin.

So I highly doubt that a few garage scientists worry them with their findings and internet whistle blowing. Whether right or wrong, it is what it is. Ford dealers will always continue to screw on Motorcraft filters, and now Omnicraft, on off-brand vehicles, on everything in the shop regardless of the (small percentage of) people who cut filters open and discuss their inequities.


Sure but the plot does thicken when Ford has to issue a TSB for filter media clogging the variable valve timing...


Is this TSB relative to Motorcraft filters only, or aftermarket filters with dome end bypass? I'm at a loss to understand how media finds its way upstream if the filter has a base end bypass such as a Motorcraft. In any case, how does this media escape?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by dnewton3
For those whom think the "flow" (volumetric displacement) is driving the tears, I'll ask you to consider this ...
Let's say the engine is pumping 5 gal/min. And perhaps the filter has 25 pleats (a very low count, but easy math). That means on average that each pleat is passing 0.2 (two-tenths) of a gallon per minute. Or, .033 gal/sec. Add more pleats and the flow gets even lower per pleat. IMO- flow is the the cause.


I'm assuming you meant in your last sentance that you meant to say: "IMO-flow is not the cause".

So if oil flow is not the cause, then your theory must be that all the reported tears were there from the factory before use.

I'll respectfully disagree for reasons already stated. Oil flow definately causes stress on the pleats, and if the media is brittle and tears easily (as shown to be true in tearing Purolators), then oil flow can cause pleats to bend and tear given the right circumstances.

We have also seen bent and flattened pleats on eCore center tubed filters that have blown the media right through a cage window.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by Farnsworth
I don't own a Ford but will definitely look at them if ever I need another car. According to what has already been said, Ford issued the TSB not on their own oil filters. If Ford "execs" knew about these new tears after the UScar 36 update they will be all over it pronto with Purolator. They don't make the filters they buy them from Purolator. There is nothing to hide.


The statement in red never happened since more tears have occurred since Ford's adoption of USCAR-36.

A few guys here emailed Motorcraft reporting torn filters, and they said they never heard anything back. Just crickets like the way Purolator addressed the situation.


They will be all over it is in the future. Knew should be know, what is this grammar class? Have no idea what you are talking about it never happened because it is in the future. IF they find out my opinion is they will be all over it since they are buying the filters.

My bread wasn't made by Costco just as Ford doesn't make MC filters. What are they supposed to do, cut open each one and weld it back together. Should Costco open each loaf and go through the slices? Now if a Ford factory made the filters it is a different story. This one is for the other talk about my bread analogy not yours.


"Knew" or "Know" ... it doesn't really matter if was then or now. Motorcraft (therefore Ford) was alerted of tearing Purolator made Motorcraft filters years ago by members here, and who knows who else beyond BITOG. So they "knew" then, and they "know" now. They should be monitoring their products. Just like in a thread linked to an old response from Fram to a BITOG member saying Fram cuts open used filters off of cars to see how they held up. Just like guys here cut and post their findings.

 

[Sayjac]

Quote
….The interesting thing is, the OEM Ford filters, from the factory, are Champ made filters....
Actually latest anecdotes posted this sub forum indicate they are now Wix made. And I would imagine like Champ made before them, it was/is a low bid contract situation.

As for topic, 'imo' way too much hand wringing. But considering the sensationalized (also imo) title nature unsurprising I suppose. 'Based on anecdotes posted' the 820S seems by far to be the major MC problem filter in the line up. Same basis, this one a tad of an outlier. As to whether one uses any MC OFs or not for whatever reasons, freedom of choice, everyone makes thier own call. My .02

Carry on.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by dnewton3
For those whom think the "flow" (volumetric displacement) is driving the tears, I'll ask you to consider this ...
Let's say the engine is pumping 5 gal/min. And perhaps the filter has 25 pleats (a very low count, but easy math). That means on average that each pleat is passing 0.2 (two-tenths) of a gallon per minute. Or, .033 gal/sec. Add more pleats and the flow gets even lower per pleat. IMO- flow is the the cause.


I'm assuming you meant in your last sentance that you meant to say: "IMO-flow is not the cause".

So if oil flow is not the cause, then your theory must be that all the reported tears were there from the factory before use.

I'll respectfully disagree for reasons already stated. Oil flow definately causes stress on the pleats, and if the media is brittle and tears easily (as shown to be true in tearing Purolators), then oil flow can cause pleats to bend and tear given the right circumstances.

We have also seen bent and flattened pleats on eCore center tubed filters that have blown the media right through a cage window.


Yes - thanks for the catch on the typo, Zee. "Flow is not the cause" was my intent to state (I fixed it in my post).

I get what you are saying, but I'm diving to a deeper level.

The "flow" and "dP" which are seen in the filter for any typical application are truly "normal"; it's the expected operational condition. I don't see "flow" as a root cause of a problem, when that "flow" is the expected norm. The root cause goes deeper; it's a flaw that pre-exists the flow, and the flow only reveals the weakness present.
- it's not a design issue; there are tons of filters made that use the typical end-cap and glue method
- it's might be a media issue; but there are tons of filters made that have the same basic media construction
- it's likely a production error; something is happening intermittently that causes a weak spot to develop in the media, thereby making it susceptible to the normal forces experienced in the filter. Again - I'm not that familiar with the process, but I suspect it's highly automated, and subject to many various processes in production. It could be an issue where the media is gripped for any manner of folding or manipulation. It could be an issue with a "pick-n-place" machine that move the semi-finished product into a sub-process. It could be a clamping force issue (too tight and over-stresses the media). Etc ...

I agree with most here; I'm done buying MC and Puros until the issue seems resolved. Plenty of other choices on the market for about the same price, which exhibit far fewer issues.

 

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted by Farnsworth
My bread wasn't made by Costco just as Ford doesn't make MC filters. What are they supposed to do, cut open each one and weld it back together. Should Costco open each loaf and go through the slices? Now if a Ford factory made the filters it is a different story. This one is for the other talk about my bread analogy not yours.


I don't know....as a business owner I use a lot of materials and products from other manufactures. If my work was failing due to a problem with some material/product I purchased you can bet I'd be all over that in a heartbeat. My customers will be looking at me for an explanation and fix/restitution and not the manufactures who supply me with the materials/products. I sold it so the buck stops with me....and it should since I take pride in my work and it is part of my job to source reliable materials/products.