Another M1 Annual Protection question.

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Originally Posted By: salcuta88
If this oil is a true synthetic, like group 4/5, then the price isn't too bad and it could sell as well as Amsoil/Royal Purple/Redline. We just don't know what group oil it is yet.


I agree with this. Maybe Exxon will (but I doubt it) become more transparent and tell the consumer which base stock this oil is,unlike when they went behind the consumer's back and switched from pao to grp III and we found out when their paper got leaked a few years back.


They should do that. I'd venture a guess and say 99.995% of WMT shoppers would have no clue what any of it means. Even if it was three times the value of EP for twice the price. The biggest and best companies in the world make mistakes, this looks like it could be one for XOM, and maybe WMT for taking it in. I'm very interested in how this plays out.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I agree with this. Maybe Exxon will (but I doubt it) become more transparent and tell the consumer which base stock this oil is,unlike when they went behind the consumer's back and switched from pao to grp III and we found out when their paper got leaked a few years back.


And now apparently switched back to majority PAO from the previous Visom base, and lost Longlife-01 in the process.

Again demonstrating that a focus on base stock is silly.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
And now apparently switched back to majority PAO from the previous Visom base, and lost Longlife-01 in the process.

The oil that lost LL-01 spec (M1 0w-40) switched from Visom to GTL.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And now apparently switched back to majority PAO from the previous Visom base, and lost Longlife-01 in the process.

The oil that lost LL-01 spec (M1 0w-40) switched from Visom to GTL.


And you know this for sure?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
And now apparently switched back to majority PAO from the previous Visom base, and lost Longlife-01 in the process.

The oil that lost LL-01 spec (M1 0w-40) switched from Visom to GTL.


And you know this for sure?

No, just based on this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...GTL#Post4015787

I have not seen anything else that would indicate majority PAO.

 

[njohnson]

Originally Posted By: kohnen
Originally Posted By: njohnson

I think Mobil is offering this oil to those want the "Ultimate" synthetic, the best of the best approach. It will be interesting to see how it sells.

They are offering a brand new product, which they say is their highest quality product. I believe they would sell more if they reformulated the EP to include the new technology and then charge a few more dollars.

What will affect the sales is the price. Let's see what kind of rebates Mobil offers, they have the rebates for the other Mobil 1 oils. I would try the Annual Protection if Mobil offered a good rebate for it.


So, ok. Let's assume that XOM is saying that it is their top-tier oil (like Shell has done with Ultra). Then it would make sense for them to do two things:

1) Have a list as long as my arm of the specs it meets. Gen 2 Dexos1 would be a great start. The BMW long-life specs would also make sense. If it's such a great oil, show that it meets all the specifications a great oil should be able to meet.

2) Tell us BITOG-type folk what it does for us. Unsurpassed cleanliness? Tell us! Incredible friction reduction? Say it! Sludge removal and prevention like seen in no other oil? Let us know about it!

Right now, they're essentially saying: "We took Mobil 1 EP which is good for 1 year and 15,000 miles, and added 5,000 miles and no additional time to it. Then, we doubled the price. It doesn't really meet any more specs than EP does, and we're not saying how it might be a better oil, but trust us." Their marketing folk have fallen flat on their faces.

Now, their Annual Performance filters? We added 5,000 miles to the 15,000 mile filters, added an "A" to the end of the part number, and put them on sale for less than the previous filter.

My Walmart is flat out of the Annual Performance filter for my car, and has PLENTY of stock for 5W30 Annual Performance oil. This is a big clue on how their customer base perceives the value of their products.

Just my 2¢.


Mobil is trying to tell us how good the oil is here:

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results


Considering the Mobil 1 EP is capable of 15,000 miles/ 1 year intervals, and it is around $25 for the 5 quart jug at Walmart, the challenge for Mobil is that customers are going to look at the Annual Protection and for 5,000 more miles, the price is doubled? If it was priced at $30 or $35, that would be one thing, but $50?

It is going to be interesting to see how it sells.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
No, just based on this:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthr...GTL#Post4015787

I have not seen anything else that would indicate majority PAO.


OK, I'll stand corrected.

But we still should be pining for the good old days of Visom

 

[kohnen]

Originally Posted By: njohnson
Mobil is trying to tell us how good the oil is here:

https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why-the-...-tested-results

Considering the Mobil 1 EP is capable of 15,000 miles/ 1 year intervals, and it is around $25 for the 5 quart jug at Walmart, the challenge for Mobil is that customers are going to look at the Annual Protection and for 5,000 more miles, the price is doubled? If it was priced at $30 or $35, that would be one thing, but $50?

It is going to be interesting to see how it sells.

OK, that's more useful information. Now, if XOM want's to REALLY sell AP, they need to compare AP with their EP, and explain why AP is $25/(5 quarts) better than EP. Because if they were to repeat the test with EP, but doing 7 oil changes (once every 15,000 miles) and get the same result, then they'd have to explain why I should buy $250 worth of AP vs $175 worth of EP just to save myself 2 oil changes worth of effort.

I'm wondering if XOM will step up to the plate on this one...

 

[The Critic]

After a bit more thought, it really does not make sense for XOM to maintain all 3 products at their current price points.

My guess is that EP will be discontinued in favor of the new M1 AP.

Having 2 products makes a lot more sense - $26 for 10k or OEM interval (regular Mobil 1), $50 for 20k.

 

[Matagonka]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: salcuta88
If this oil is a true synthetic, like group 4/5, then the price isn't too bad and it could sell as well as Amsoil/Royal Purple/Redline. We just don't know what group oil it is yet.

Outside of a select few on BITOG, how many other consumers out there actually care about the group thing? And how many of those are Walmart shoppers?


I'd say 99% will care more about the label and statement.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: salcuta88
I'd say 99% will care more about the label and statement.

Statement?

 

[Matagonka]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: salcuta88
I'd say 99% will care more about the label and statement.

Statement?


Yes, "20,000 miles".

 

[WhizkidTN]

Sad thing is that many of those "buyers" will wrongly assume that they can fill their oil sump with this stuff and NOT check it or replace it for one years worth of driving, NO MATTER WHAT! Or until that little red "Oil" idiot lite comes on!

Far too many folks have NO common sense.

 

[53' Stude]

Yeah, give me my Delo or maxlife or give me death

 

[SR5]

I'm not an oil formulator, but if I was, how would I make M1 AP?

I would use a more shear stable VII polymer, as looking through the UOA section here, it's not uncommon to see the M1 products shear down and drop their viscosity more than an equivalent Castrol or PP product. Then I would finish off the M1 AP with a pinch more TBN.

Interesting the AP has a good low PP suggesting some PAO content, but a fairly regular Sulphated Ash level of 0.8%, so it can only push the ZDDP and TBN so far.

Most of this should fall out in the wash once the first VOAs and UOAs start to appear. But shear stability is the thing I would be looking for with the new M1 product.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Agreed. The 0w40 has a more robust add pack and is already capable of 20k mile OCI based on some of the mfg specs that it carries, and it's only half the price of M1 AP.

Yes. Sacrificing the entire BMW LL-01 market in the hopes of snagging a few away from Amsoil Signature Series hardly seems to be a good bargain. If they want Americans to buy jugs of M1 at $50, load up some buses in the States and take them shopping in Toronto.

njohnson: If it were me, they might as well go all the way and simply get the spec back. The "old spec" and updates are what got them into this mess in the first place. If someone wants something "close enough" to an A3/B3 or A3/B4, or "close enough" to an older version of those specs, they can grab an HDEO. Virtually all the A3/B4 type lubes from the big companies in North America have all the specs (or as many as they can based on grade, with Porsche having some viscosity limits, as I recall) and are a high end synthetic already. The ironic thing is that Mobil already has a lower tier product in Canada that meets LL-01, although it's only available in bulk quantities. Whatever the reason is for this spec being gone, whether it's simply timing, the product can't meet the spec at this point, or Mobil is mad at BMW and Shell, really isn't the point. If Mobil is struggling with the factory fill and service fill business right now, they're not going to do themselves any favours by taking specs off the label. No A5/B5 on M1 and M1 EP? No LL-01 on M1 0w-40? Specs disappearing from Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40? Are they going to let dexos1 lapse, too?

In the long run, I would say Mobil is doing at least something correct here, and that is mentioning this mileage. While we may balk at the price point and wonder how many people will go this far on an oil change, at least it's a tangible target, and the price point can be adjusted. We already see what happens when you don't differentiate two products by anything except price, which translates into poor availability.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I'm not an oil formulator, but if I was, how would I make M1 AP?

I would use a more shear stable VII polymer, as looking through the UOA section here, it's not uncommon to see the M1 products shear down and drop their viscosity more than an equivalent Castrol or PP product. Then I would finish off the M1 AP with a pinch more TBN.

Interesting the AP has a good low PP suggesting some PAO content, but a fairly regular Sulphated Ash level of 0.8%, so it can only push the ZDDP and TBN so far.

Most of this should fall out in the wash once the first VOAs and UOAs start to appear. But shear stability is the thing I would be looking for with the new M1 product.


Seems like the infographic on XOM's own website shows M1 AP shearing faster than the competition, but then warding off oxidation far longer...has that been their approach for whole M1 line, to not worry about shearing too much but avoid sludging at all costs?

 

[bunnspecial]

I know I'm an "ideal" customer for this oil, but it takes me about 11 months to do 10K of mostly interstate miles in my main car. I run standard M1 high mileage for 10K with about 2 quarts added over 10K miles.

The other vehicles I look after typically don't do enough miles to run their specified OCI in 1 year, but are on a 1 year change interval anyway just out of practice.

So, again, FOR ME, I don't see any advantage to this.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: SR5
I'm not an oil formulator, but if I was, how would I make M1 AP?

I would use a more shear stable VII polymer, as looking through the UOA section here, it's not uncommon to see the M1 products shear down and drop their viscosity more than an equivalent Castrol or PP product. Then I would finish off the M1 AP with a pinch more TBN.

Interesting the AP has a good low PP suggesting some PAO content, but a fairly regular Sulphated Ash level of 0.8%, so it can only push the ZDDP and TBN so far.

Most of this should fall out in the wash once the first VOAs and UOAs start to appear. But shear stability is the thing I would be looking for with the new M1 product.


Seems like the infographic on XOM's own website shows M1 AP shearing faster than the competition, but then warding off oxidation far longer...has that been their approach for whole M1 line, to not worry about shearing too much but avoid sludging at all costs?

Very interesting VP, I hadn't realized that, thanks for pointing it out. Yeah sludge has a bad name, and once you have a rep as a sludger, it tends to follow you around. So it makes sense to focus on fighting sludge. Many people notice sludge but only BITOG type people spend their own $ for a VOA and UOA to compare the KV100 before and after.

If they (and API) were prepared to relax the SAPS levels a bit, ZDDP is a great oil anti-oxidant as well as it's anti-wear properties. One of the reasons I go for a Euro ACEA oil with ~ 1000ppm Zinc over an ILSAC oil with ~ 800 ppm Zn. This and the ACEA shear stability test. Some how all those Euro cars manage to keep their cats alive at this zinc level.

Having said that, I'm not doing extended drains, so I'm probably being a little over cautious.

But yeah, all the big name companiies make good oil, all with their own balance point and focus.

 

[buster]

The cleanliness in the XOM Oxidation test is really good.

I think one of the main differences between M1 AP and other competitive synthetics is its resistance to oxidation, sludge and deposits. You can run many oils for longer drains, but be left with an engine that has sludge/deposit/varnish.

Quote:
Parts measured in the Lexus NX 200t at the end of the test were top deck, rocker cover, oil pan and bottom end that had an overall rating of 9.73 out of 10 for superior performance and help protecting against the accumulation of harmful deposits.


A 9.73 after 20k mile drains is impressive. Many oils couldn't hit that number at 10k miles. And they tested in Turbo DI engines.

It should be noted too that M1 AP has a SA of .8. Boutique brands are using older, less expensive approaches to long drain intervals by boos their oils with high levels of calcium, which we know is not good for LSPI and DI engines.