Amsoil TBN versus M1 / RP in ASTM D2896 Testing

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by PimTac
"Why doesn't AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?

Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information)."






Valvoline has no problem with this and they use components from the big boys.


As does Ravenol

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by PimTac
"Why doesn't AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?

Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information)."






Valvoline has no problem with this and they use components from the big boys.

Maybe it's because valvoline isn't using PAO base stocks? Maybe low key that answers if amsoil is actually 100% synthetic. Food for thought really

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Yes all that group II & III in the 10w30/SAE 30 is how they got away with using zero VII. So much hate because amsoil doesn't follow the rules and produces an oil that is very good. We can't trust the little guys but trust the companies who could very well be in bed with one another

Can we please stop with the goofy "hate" nonsense? People drag out this word in various threads when they are apparently so threatened by factual discussion they have to lash out in a personal way.

It never fails to remind me of my daughter when she was about 12, and every time either I or my wife corrected her we were "yelling" at her.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Yes all that group II & III in the 10w30/SAE 30 is how they got away with using zero VII. So much hate because amsoil doesn't follow the rules and produces an oil that is very good. We can't trust the little guys but trust the companies who could very well be in bed with one another

Can we please stop with the goofy "hate" nonsense? People drag out this word in various threads when they are apparently so threatened by factual discussion they have to lash out in a personal way.

It never fails to remind me of my daughter when she was about 12, and every time either I or my wife corrected her we were "yelling" at her.

Well were you yelling?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Well were you yelling?

I was just asking you to grow up. That's all.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Maybe it's because valvoline isn't using PAO base stocks? Maybe low key that answers if amsoil is actually 100% synthetic. Food for thought really

Interchangeability isn't solely for PAO base stocks.

Do you know what base stocks are used in manufacturing Amsoil products?

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by PimTac
"Why doesn't AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?

Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information)."






Valvoline has no problem with this and they use components from the big boys.

Maybe it's because valvoline isn't using PAO base stocks? Maybe low key that answers if amsoil is actually 100% synthetic. Food for thought really





Do you have a reference to back that up? Besides, the principle question remains. Anytime the oil company changes the composition they need recertifications. The baseoil being group 3 or 4 or 5 doesn't matter.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Well were you yelling?

I was just asking you to grow up. That's all.

Same could be said about you even making that comment but fair enough, I won't point out obvious dislike towards a brand.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by PimTac
"Why doesn't AMSOIL license all of its synthetic motor oils?

Answer: If all AMSOIL motor oils were API licensed, the company could not source new raw materials from multiple suppliers, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. To solve this problem, the API must establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic base stocks just as they have for other base stocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing (see the Ask AMSOIL entry above for more information)."






Valvoline has no problem with this and they use components from the big boys.

Maybe it's because valvoline isn't using PAO base stocks? Maybe low key that answers if amsoil is actually 100% synthetic. Food for thought really





Do you have a reference to back that up? Besides, the principle question remains. Anytime the oil company changes the composition they need recertifications. The baseoil being group 3 or 4 or 5 doesn't matter.

No I have no reference again it was just food for thought. So don't take it for anything other than that

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Well were you yelling?

I was just asking you to grow up. That's all.

Same could be said about you even making that comment but fair enough, I won't point out obvious dislike towards a brand.

No, we weren't yelling at her and she did grow up and realize that.

And like or dislike has nothing to do with the facts, unless one continues to try and deflect away from them. I use Amsoil gear oil in my manual transmission and I have used it in the past in some of my OPE. I have no particular like or dislike for any brand. At one time perhaps I did "like" Mobil 1 for my BMW, but since it lost Longlife-01 approval I moved three feet down the Walmart shelf to Castrol 0W-40. It's not about like or dislike with me, that's going to be difficult to prove.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Well were you yelling?

I was just asking you to grow up. That's all.

Same could be said about you even making that comment but fair enough, I won't point out obvious dislike towards a brand.

No, we weren't yelling at her and she did grow up and realize that.

And like or dislike has nothing to do with the facts, unless one continues to try and deflect away from them. I use Amsoil gear oil in my manual transmission and I have used it in the past in some of my OPE. I have no particular like or dislike for any brand. At one time perhaps I did "like" Mobil 1 for my BMW, but since it lost Longlife-01 approval I moved three feet down the Walmart shelf to Castrol 0W-40. It's not about like or dislike with me, that's going to be a difficult to prove.

If you don't like or dislike a product then my comment wasn't geared towards you, I do apologize if it bothered you though

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by parshisa
SA in the re-formulated SS line is not through the roof - 1.05% which is not that much higher than the limit of 1%. and only 0.1% higher than M1.

It's still technically through the roof.

It's either exceeding the limit, or it's not. Look at E7, E9 HDEOs, even the E6 ones. You can have TBN of 11 or 12 and still have SA of 1. You just don't get to use calcium like it's going out of style.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by StevieC
And we are going to take GM's word for it that SA is a problem? Really from them? Seems to me that lots of OE's get by just fine but GM has to invent a new oil spec to "fix" their engineering.

If Amsoil wants, they're perfectly capable of making their 5w-30 a 5w-30 A3/B4 and telling people that's better for their engines than a 5w-30 ILSAC. Then, the SA limit jumps to 1.3, they can increase TBN even higher, HTHS will be up, and they'll have an even more capable long drain oil.

I'm the first to agree Amsoil makes a fine oil. But, they won't say or do what I suggested, because it won't fit within their marketing strategy. They grab an ordinary ILSAC grade, tweak here and there, highlight certain changes, and gloss over others. If the perception is that ordinary ILSAC offering isn't good enough (and I'm not claiming it's not), don't try to put lipstick on a pig, move to something else.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by StevieC
API licensing is just that it meets a minimum standard. Then can be and is better out there.


That's the ENTIRE point of standards, Stevie. It gives the objective user a point of reference to compare whatever they want. However, instead of certifications, AMSOIL for whatever (illogical) reason, refuses to make its SS oils that have certifications as plenty of others have pointed out here.

I have ZERO problems with AMSOIL fluids. I actually think they make some decent products, but I have every problem with AMSOIL's completely ambiguous claims. If you had an independent third party test your stuff to an industry standard, SHOW all of the related information! Who did the test, the test parameters, the full results, etc. Tests done to standards should be able to be duplicated to verify; when you play cloak-and-dagger with the "independent" testing, all that says is you're not being truthful about something.

madeej, the reason why none of the major oil makers bother testing against Amsoil is that for 99% of car owners and manufacturer dealerships, oils that are CERTIFIED are required to maintain warranty coverage. That's a big deal to normal people.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by parshisa
has anyone even looked at the available independent virgin oil analysis of the oil which confirm type of the base stocks (POA+Esters) used for oil manufacturing?


Exactly where did you find a VOA of AMSOIL that could determine the base stock of the oil? The test you're speaking of isn't something you can get from Blackstone, Polaris, CAT, etc... plus it's way more than any sane person would spend on a $40/gal oil... MolaKule mentioned costs likely in the four-figure range IIRC.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by kschachn
In reality the API restrictions on ad hoc changes is a safeguard, not a detriment. Just ask ExxonMobil about their post-Katrina formulation.

It's a "Minimum" not a "The best it can be" was my point. It's to protect against fraudulent dollar store type oils.


OK, typing slowly now...

Any manufacturer of engine oil can make an engine oil that exceeds the minimum, by any amount that they want to...

The minimum pass mark in reading and comprehension may well be 50% (or lower depending on locale), but THE pass mark doesn't stop ANYONE striving for 100%.

Choosing not to licence their oils is NOT to make a superior product...your quoted text states but one of the reasons that Amsoil doesn't want to licence...they will be held to the interchange guidelines, and not be able to chase "cost effective" suppliers (you are a salesman, you know what that means).

All the other oil makers make a superior product to...well above the minimum standards for even OTC dino products....your assertion that the rules are there to protect against fraudulent dollar stores is either naïve/ignorant, or wilfully disingenuous.

A couple of actual oil guys have suggested that for example the Sequence IVA, their won't send an oil to the test unless it's "2.5 times better wear protection" than the standard requires...i.e. they beat the pass mark...they AIM to beat the pass mark.

But to not licence your oil, to add way more S.A. than a compliant oil CAN have per the rules, then advertising that you have a higher TBN than the competitors is a bit like bragging that you got to second base with your first cousin.

 

[Shannow]

Maybe Amsoil just simply don't understand how to make engine oil ?

Try these headlines...
Pennzoil Conventional oil provides 12.5% more cleaning power than amsoil fully synthetic OE oils.
Valvoline White bottle beats the cleaning power of amsoil OE oils, at a fraction of the cost...

OE has a TBN of 8...
I was twigged to this by amsoil's claim
Quote
AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Motor Oil has 50 percent more detergents to help keep oil passages clean and promote oil circulation.


then the fine print than the OE range...queue first base with your sister.

 

[madeej11]

Seems like Amsoil is the only company with the marbles to basically come out and proclaim OUR OIL IS BETTER THAN YOURS. They've been doing this for years. Where are the big boys? Oh there they are, cowering in the corner. Also I'd like to know which oil company doesn't have to outsource ingredients for their formulations, ridiculous. Amsoil is not the be all and end all but they are a great company. True red, white and blue.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted by madeej11
Seems like Amsoil is the only company with the marbles to basically come out and proclaim OUR OIL IS BETTER THAN YOURS. They've been doing this for years. Where are the big boys? Oh there they are, cowering in the corner. Also I'd like to know which oil company doesn't have to outsource ingredients for their formulations, ridiculous. Amsoil is not the be all and end all but they are a great company. True red, white and blue.


Do you live under a rock ?

The majors are always coming out with something that they do that is better than their competitors, calling out substandard performance when they identify it...PQIA shows how they compare on the cheaper metrics.

Amsoil sets their own "standard"...exceeds API specs all over the place, then claims superiority.

Re the claim on GM and S.A....I would sincerely hope that no-one in this thread thinks that amsoil knows more about emissions systems and LSPI than GM.

 

[4WD]

Really? What corner ? - several major companies could make a lube like Amsoil out of products they produce - but there are only so many people in the world looking for this kind of product or willing to not follow the OEM certifications ...
Do I think they make good stuff - sure ... but it's not a fit for anything I own and maintain ...