AMSOIL position on API Licensing

[Pablo]

Wow - lots o' words (and thinkin' too)!

My .99US$ (.65$ CAN)(Inflation):

The API performance specifications are minimalist. They really are.

But Amsoil should offer some common grades of FULL synthetic that are 100% compliant P and all. 5W-30 and 10W-30 come to mind. And use some Mo, too.

The 20W-50 et al who cares if those are API??

[ January 07, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue.

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Did anyone else read this portion of the original thread?

We're being watched! Let's only hope the oil companies are listening!

I still bet that within two years Amsoil adds moly to it's oils (maybe not all of them, but at least a few) Mark my words!

 

[Giles]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
The API performance specifications are minimalist. They really are.

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All the more reason why it's stupid in my opinion that they don't get certified.

quote:

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But Amsoil should offer some common grades of FULL synthetic that are 100% compliant P and all. 5W-30 and 10W-30 come to mind. And use some Mo, too.

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Agreed. It would make the decision to use their product much easier for new car owners with a Warranty.

 

[Pablo]

Patman - I know for a fact that Amsoil HQ is aware of BiTOG.

How much they lurk here, I dunno.

Now is "Al Amatuzio" really me? I can only say that the walrus was Paul.

 

[68redlines73]

No. 9...No. 9...No.9...

 

[Spector]

well, you all know my two cents. I have used Amsoil for 10 years, good stuff for the most part. Their warranty isn't worth the paper it is printed on API certified or not. It didn't pay off in the Toyota sludge issue when Amosil was used and has "in fact" never paid off a claim. Never will as an engine will never be mechanically sound if it fails

If the API certification is needed for warranty and warranty is an issue for a onwer do not use the Amsoil non API oil. It isn't worth the hassle if you have an engine problem. If you don't care (as I) or are willing to live 1-3 years without a car while the courts decide that the oil was not the cause of the failure, fine, by all means use it.

I use it and love to bash it. How else will we ever get change for the better!

 

[MolaKule]

Here is where I disagree with Amsoil (from a chemistry standpoint, not marketing or quality):

"When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection
with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue."

With other anti-wear additives, such as, MoTDC, SbTDC, Borates, or CaS, are used, one does NOT have to use high levels of ZDDP. You still need approx. 0.025-0.075% of ZDDP to aid the TDC's of moly, etc.

Bottom line is, the chemistry IS here, so this is a non-argument.

 

[MolaKule]

Pablo,

Does D. Alexander still head the Chemistry group at Amsoil?

 

[buster]

I believe, as I mentioned in the other thread, that Amsoil as we all no is in the long drain market. They claim not to use Moly bc it is not compatible with there long drain formulations. This is what they told via email. Now, would Moly be something they could use and still get longer drains out of?

[ January 07, 2003, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

Well to put things in perspective ....

1) The API licensing program has ONLY been in place since 1992. I find it hard to believe that the motorcar existed for approx 100 years before donuts starting appearing on oil containers. My parents and grandparents must have been very brave indeed to venture beyond their respective driveways without an oil blessed by the API.

2) The API "Certified for gas engines" program is even newer and appeared sometime in the mid 1990's. The intent of this program was and is to get folks to use first 10w-30, then 5w-30 and now 5w-20 grades to maximize fuel efficiency. A worthy goal, but hardly the criterion I'd use in selecting a long drain synthetic oil ....

 

[68redlines73]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Well to put things in perspective ....

1) The API licensing program has ONLY been in place since 1992. I find it hard to believe that the motorcar existed for approx 100 years before donuts starting appearing on oil containers. My parents and grandparents must have been very brave indeed to venture beyond their respective driveways without an oil blessed by the API.

2) The API "Certified for gas engines" program is even newer and appeared sometime in the mid 1990's. The intent of this program was and is to get folks to use first 10w-30, then 5w-30 and now 5w-20 grades to maximize fuel efficiency. A worthy goal, but hardly the criterion I'd use in selecting a long drain synthetic oil ....

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Good points both, but, before EOLCS, oil manufacturers could run engine tests until they got one good pass and then claim that they met the specification. Now, the engine tests are more severe, oils must pass the engine tests on a statistical basis AND once licensed they have a chance a lose that license when randomly tested.

 

[mdv]

quote:

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Originally posted by Spector:
It didn't pay off in the Toyota sludge...

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Spector, do you have anything to support this? I'd be interested in seeing it.

 

[Spector]

quote:

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Originally posted by mdv:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spector:
It didn't pay off in the Toyota sludge...

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Spector, do you have anything to support this? I'd be interested in seeing it.

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Well, there was a site on the Edmunds board on th sludge, I don't recall if Bob had one also. However, a few of the sludged engines used Amsoil and were denied converage as Amsoil claimed there was an engine defect that caused the sludge. Also, I specifically asked the direct jobber I deal with and he stated the same reply, defect in design Amsoil is not to blame. I suggest calling them directly for a reply to this But I am 99.9 % certain that they did not pay anything.

My real issue with this is that the dealers (for the most part) and corporate refused to inform Toyota owners that purchased from them that extended drains could be a problem. They continued to tote the 25,000 mile corporate line which to me (given the known sludging issue and that even Amsoil could not protect the engine), is misleading marketing and not living up to their so called high standards. They also continue to label their XL series as synthetic.

 

[ben walker]

This is what I have been saying all along and I am glad Bob brought it up. The Moss act does not protect you if you are using products that are not certified for the application by the oem. That being said Amsoil does make some good products and some that are only average. They are not the be all and end all of lubricants though as some of the there zealot/salesman will have you believe.

 

[Mike_dup1]

I hate to get involved and should let this die. The only people who get wound up on this topic are usually those who would never use Amsoil because they have thier own favorite brand or sell competing product. In the last 25 yrs I have never used an API certified oil in any of my new vehicles and to this date have never had any issues with warranty.

Any car dealer is going to have an extremely difficult time determining if the oil in your engine is API certified or not. If you go tell them, then they will use it against you.

Just like a co-woker who snaped the u-joints of his new Ford truck when he was stuck in the mud. He was talking to the repair tech he knew casually and mentioned he was really hammering it to get unstuck. When he picked up the truck, he had a large bill and the statement on the repair order. Customer state's he abused the truck when stuck in the mud. If he woudl have kept his mouth shut no one would have been the wiser.

Here's a response I received from a indepentent oil lab on this question.

quote:

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Mike,

Some brands of oil are easily recognizable though some aren't. Which oils we can recognize changes regularly as the oil makers
change additive groups often and with no notice. Mobil 1, for instance, is
on its third iteration, the current one called SuperSyn or something like
that. It looks surprisingly like Castrol's GTX, (in additives) as do many
of the light multi-grades lately. Shell's Rotella T 15W/40 diesel-use
engine oil only changed its appearance twice in the first 15 years we were
analyzing oils and then suddenly, a couple years ago, made a major change
and now looks the same as Chevron's Delo. There is enough new going on in
the world of oils that it is chancy to make any certain statement as to who
actually produced any one oil regardless of its brand name. At times we do
venture into this arena of uncertainty though I wouldn't always be ready to
make a large monetary bet on being perfectly correct.

The viscosity of an engine oil shouldn't change much with use if
no contaminates enter into the picture. In the world of multi-grades what
change there is, is to a mildly lower viscosity from use, a change which is
predictable under normal use. If any oil is run unusually hot or far too
long, it will tend to rise in viscosity. There should not be a significant
difference in an oil's viscosity, unused to the used state.

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[ January 07, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

 

[TooSlick]

Spector,

Toyota recommends 7500 mile/1 year drain intervals for the V-6 Camry engine under "normal" driving conditions. The reason this engine IS clearly defective - IMNSHO - is that you simply cannot run 7500 mile drain intervals using an average quality, API licensed petroleum oil and get good long term results. In fact, I think there is a high likelyhood that the engine would be severly sludged up within 50,000 miles. So the Toyota drain interval recommendation is about 50% too long - even under ideal conditions.

Amsoil bases their extended drain recommendations on the premise that you can run the maximum oil change intervals recommended for petroleum oils under "normal" driving conditions. In most cases, this is now 7500-10,000 miles, using API licensed SL rated petroleum oils. If you run into an application such as the Camry where this isn't the case, you do need to use some common sense and shorted the drain. The local Amsoil dealers here in Huntsville, Alabama have discussed this issue at length and we have collectively concluded that the prudent thing to do is recommend 7500-10,000 mile drain intervals w/ Amsoil for the Toyota/Lexus V-6 engine, depending on the severity of driving conditions. If Toyota fixes this problem, I will start recommending longer drain intervals for this motor ....

Based on some limited oil analysis data, the Toyota/Lexus V-8s may have this same problem to a lesser degree. So I would be cautious about those as well and do oil analysis ....

TooSlick

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

TooSlick commented If Toyota fixes this problem, I will start recommending longer drain intervals for this motor ....

There has been no problem with this engine. It is a great engine and until suggested oil drains of 5 to 7500 miles came into play and oil reformulation back in 96/97, is when all this problem become evident. Just because an engine can tear up an oil faster than some other engines, does not constitute an engine problem/design flaw. It's just one of those things that you just have to understand that this design will not allow for extended drains on conventional oils. Simple as that. 3k drains have never caused a problem with conventional. Oils such as Amsoil,schaeffers, and mobil synth would allow for their oil drain recommendation but only if those types of oils are used. Standard otc oils normally will not last.

As another point, they now have been coming out with a new designed engine that does not have the inside gear assembly in the valve/oil cover but on the outside as most other do. That engine design should take care of this now they have an alternative type of engine available. This isn't to say they are replacing the sludge monster engins with this new one but it is a newer design which I suspect will become more prevelant in more toyotas IMO.

Here is a couple of pics showing how they have changed the gear setup..

[ January 08, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[Terry]

I just finished testing Exxon Superflo 5w-30 with 3 oz.s of Auto-RX at an interval of 7741 miles with residual moly from redline at 110 ppm and achieved very low wear,no sludge precursers. Vis dropped to 9.0 cSt but that doesn't surprise me. This was in a 2001 Toyota 3.0L V6,engine has about 50,000 miles on it.

I think Amsoil or Schaeffers is capable of going 7500 miles in these engines safely if I can make a .99c a quart oil do it.

 

[Giles]

Terry, Will you post UOA on this? Also did you have to to change the oil filter in this interval? What filter did you use?

 

[TooSlick]

Bob,

Unless I'm going blind, that's a 16 valve, 4 cylinder motor in your pics, with variable valve timing on the intake valves.

So is this the new 2.2L Camry engine for 2003? That would make some sense ....

TS