AMSOIL position on API Licensing

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308
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SF/Bay Area, CA
I received this reply back on 12/20 but only had access to a PC that couldn't cut and paste (webtv...yuck!). Here it is in it's entirety. I don't agree with all of it but I'm impressed with the amount of detail they went into. Here it is... AMSOIL API Licensing Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself. API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it? An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin. Costs The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs. Who Licenses What Formulas? Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary. Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils. Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil. Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula. Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas Phosphorous content - .10% maximum (API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only) NOACK volatility - 15% maximum The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil. The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters. AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed. Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not 1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too. 2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue. Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to: AMSOIL INC. Attention: Technical Services Department AMSOIL Building Superior, WI 54880 or e-mail to [email protected] They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers. Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing? First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements. We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals. AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period. Conclusion AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want. AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards. API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy.
 
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1,874
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Ocala, Florida
I think some clarity needs to be put out on the moss act issue. Here is a summary of this law. -------------------------------------------------- Federal Warranty Laws 1.The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) This federal law regulates warranties for the protection of consumers. The essence of this law concerning aftermarket auto parts is that a vehicle manufacturer may not condition a written or implied warranty on the consumers using parts or services which are identified by brand, trade, or corporate name (such as the vehicle makers brand) unless the parts or service are provided free of charge. The law means that the use of an aftermarket part alone is not cause for denying the warranty. However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty(Like the statement in owners manual requiring api certified oils only) which may result in its being voided. The law states in relevant part: “No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name....” (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)). [ January 06, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
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8,937
Location
SC
More BS from Amsoil, IMO. To get the SL rating would not require any change in their ZDDP level since it's only the GF-3 and "Certified for Gasoline Engine" starburst that has limits on that. So, to use ZDDP as an excuse for not getting ANY API certification is totally disingenuous on Amsoil's part, IMO. Also, the fact that they DO have oils that are API certified (the XL-7500 line and their syn blend HD oil) pretty much negates all their other reasons and kills their credibility on this subject.
 
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874
Location
Pacific NW
Their arguments seem reasonable as far as they go. I certainly consider them a specialty supplier, and so they can get away with a certain amount of elitism. The issue of P vs. volatility has come up here before. While API's stance is arguable I believe their industry position makes it likely they're more tied up in politics than in doing the right thing for high-end lubrication. Where certification costs are concerned, again, bucking the trend fits somewhat with Amsoil's niche market. Granted, they would have fewer hurdles were all their lubes API licensed but perhaps at a net loss. I imagine Al's cronies run plenty of spreadsheets on this one. I'm in no way a fan of Amsoil's business methods but they do seem to make fairly effective lubes even if the costs don't work for my needs. David
 
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198
Location
Canada
I agree with you Mike - more bashing. We don't seem to get any bashing of the other non-API brands do we? Why would any oil company get involved in the API Good 'Ol Boys Club when they are doing just fine without them? OneQuartLow: I assume you are talking about Amsoil's multi-level marketing structure - remember, everything is sold multi-level and if you do not believe that one, take another look!
 
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2,095
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IL
I agree, who cares about API. But about the marketing, it is hardly the same. Billy Joe Bob can't sell Mobil-1 out of his garage and make a Mobil-1 website with ridiculous claims, etc. Edit: As an example to how meaningless API is, SF-SJ has a Sequence IIIF oxidation test with a limit of 375% viscosity increase after 60hrs! SL has a limit of 275% at 80hrs. Red Line oil tested at 15% in the SF-SJ test!! And I believe Amsoil more recently also tested one of their oils and blew away the specs. Same for M1 a while back. [ January 07, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]
 
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Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason Troxell: [QB]I agree, who cares about API. But about the marketing, it is hardly the same. Billy Joe Bob can't sell Mobil-1 out of his garage and make a Mobil-1 website with ridiculous claims, etc. I agree that Billy Joe Bob may be irritating, but he can't be anymore clueless that the person selling M1 at Wal-mart or even Autozone, for that matter.
 
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1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
Let me point out something here.. Why other non api oil are not "bashed" as amsoil is, only because they are not using the same marketing tactics. I totally agree with david, the amsoil oil is good , it fits a specialty market, and many have nothing but good results. The issue is warr in this thread. The claim of warr related issues saying it is against the law to deny warr for use of non api oil, is incorrect as you see by the mos act which they are relying their comments on. This is only what I'm pointing out is how this law and intent was written. That comment . However, the law's protection does not extend to aftermarket parts in situations where such parts actually caused the damage being claimed under the warranty. Further, consumers are advised to be aware of any specific terms or conditions stated in the warranty(Like the statement in owners manual requiring api certified oils only) which may result in its being voided. is the catch. Amsoil might be-able to beat it, but... at what cost to the owner. Amsoil, like any other oil company, can do an analysis, verify the oil didn't do it, and leave it up to you to fight with the manufacture which specifically states to use an api certified oil as a condition of the warr program. Failure to do so, gives them a right to deny warr. It's a contract for warr, you fail to follow the conditions prescribed by the contract and feel you don't have to follow the conditions of that contract, then this can void and be con-screwed as a breach of contract. Why should the manufacture have to adhere to the contract when the consumer doesn't? Most commonly, you wont see this problem or issue of deny warr, but if aftermarket modifications are made, be it bypass filtration or use of a non api certified oil, then this can open the door for litigation, arguments,and the only one to lose would be the one in the middle. This isn't a matter of bashing amsoil but just taking the spin out and putting realism in on this subject. Being in sales, you have to come up with responses to lower the damage created by the truth sometimes and this is a problem that plagues them and will continue to do so until addressed with the truth. Should you quit using amsoil, of course not, if your not worried about having to litigate for warr issues. If out of warr, then by all means, use what you like. It's your engine, your choice, and no one can tell you not to. If you are satisfied with amsoil, which no reason not to be, then I'd strongly encourage you to continue with it as it appears to be a good oil and no reason should you have any problems with such. Myself, I have not sold any of schaeffers true synth for several reasons, one of which I don't think it is needed in the automotive application and is somewhat an over kill, but a few can benefit from it for extended drain purposes, but the second and most important reason is that I have made very clear that their(schaeffers) full synth 5w30 oil is not api certified. I'm very confident of it's quality and ability to do an excellent job, but I would not ever encourage use of any non api certified oil in a new warr'd engine, and this includes schaeffers full synth. The main point of this board is to bring in what evidence you have, post it, then from looking at all the evidence, you can make your mind up as to which way you want to proceed. If you want to use of a non api certified oil, do as one stated earlier, just drop it off with the service manager, don't make any mention of the oil you use and let them do their job and most likely it will never become an issue. Another thing to consider is to talk with the service manager and find out their disposition of the use of a non api oil. If they don't care, then good, but if they do have a problem with it, you then know ahead of time what to expect if they want to blame the oil regardless if it was that or not. What you'll find when mechanics do blame the oil is when sludge becomes an issue. In one instance for example, glycol causing sludge, or was it really the oil sludging causing the head to overheat, warping the head and leaking glycol into the oil? Point here, which came first and caused the same result? the oil damaging it or the head damaging it? No matter who's pointing the finger at each other, the end result is the same, oil analysis will show glycol in the oil and depending on which end of the stick you're on, mechanic says oil did it first, oil company says head did it first and You're in the middle. In conclusion, don't consider this as a personal amsoil bashing as it's not. Amsoil does have the xl7500 series oil, and it is highly recommended by myself that you use that api certified oil, at least till you're out of warr, then move up their top of the line oil. [ January 07, 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
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3,346
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Clarksville, Tennessee
Sorry was off topic to the thread, posted in edit, to remember that the Amsoil as a Corp is the ones that make this decision about the API, I just have to work within those decisions. I guess something I have to live with. [ January 07, 2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: msparks ]
 
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403
Location
California
Bob, excellent post that provides very good guidance and professional advice in a very objective manner in my opinion. People have asked why Amsoil should get API certified implying it's such a low standard and this is the reason: to satisfy the customer plain and simple. Why should customers be expected to be secretive with the warranty company about their oil used or even be put in a position of being dishonest to get the coverage? Shouldn't customers expect to be able to say proudly that I use Amsoil and not be wonering if they will be denied and have a fight on their hands? My owners manual says that I must use an SL rated oil with the "Made for Gasoline Engines" API starburst. My understanding is that when they went from SJ to SL ratings, they lowered certain additives (Zinc I think)because they are supposedely causing premature catalytic converter failures. If I use an oil known to have additive levels above the SL rating on these, now I have to worry about any emmission problems not being covered under warranty. For engine problems, if not being API certified isn't a convenient reason to deny coverage, then extending drains is in my opinion. If the best Amsoil oils were API certified, I would definitely consider them in my under warranty vehicles. Unfortunately for Amsoil, I like to keep things simple, so I probably won't use their oil in my older out of Warranty vehicles either. For Tommy - There is a big difference between multi-level marketing such as Amsoil or Amway and "Multi-Tier" distribution that is typical of most other products. Hopefully the differences are obvious but I'd be willing to explain if not.
 
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1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
Mike stated The only people who get wound up on this topic are usually those who would never use Amsoil because they have thier own favorite brand or sell competing product. I think you need to re read my comments on this subject. I in no way feel it necessary to get wound up on this topic just because I have a special oil. I don't need to sell this oil on here in what little quanity's you're talking about and feel that your statement is incorrect. I do how ever feel very strongly on ensuring that all of the sides/positions are seen. AGAIN, notice that I in no way am recommending not to use amsoil but to be sure that anyone spending 20-40,000 bucks on a vehicle, wants the best, then do so with out jepordizing warrs and it can be done with amsoil's xl series oils. They have a way to fit the bill, use it, but don't hack at people just because this issue was brought up and to think that no one should bring out the otherside and that we just post what amsoils comments are with out seeing the whole picture? If that's what you want, go to amsoils site, and you shouldn't see this there. Here, bring up something, expect it to be looked at, good or bad. I do find that your statement is true, not to tell a dealer what you are using, and most likely it will never become an issue. The comments from the lab is generalized on determining some oils which are common with others but in amsoils case it is easier to determine if it could qualify as api certified due to the overage of zddp levels. With the higher levels of zddp, and with a certain given viscosity it can certainly show if it has higher than api limits of zddp and that can be spotted by many good analysis and bring up the api issue if they disired to do so. I for one don't want to worry as to proving what I am using and shouldn't have to lie or omit anything to a dealer, especially when you know this issue could bite you in the butt. To be afraid of admiting of what you are doing like the guy who broke his shaft in a mud hole in my book would be cheating the dealership, and having owned business for many years, I feel it is unethical to cheat people or companies when it is plainly my fault and would not even consider doing that. In this case, I'm sure the dealership was the bad guy here and it made the owner mad for him to have to pay for his mistake. Of course many don't have a second thought about not stating the truth, and it is ashame that a person would. It costs a company to fix something that wasn't a direct result of their manufacturing defect. I for one, would not like to be ashame of my ethical practices, and if I mess up and fail to do what is right, then I would take responsibility for my own actions as I'm sure you would. So quit calling fowl because you think it's a personal agenda, it's not.
 
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3,023
Location
USA-Michigan
The Amsoil XL7500 API certified oils are just as good as many other top brands, if not better IMO. They are just not formulated for long drain intervals. They have no plans to change much in the future as long as they are convinced they are ahead of the competition. So you are saying you won't use a product you had no intention of using in the first place because a product they sell which you won't use is not API certified.
quote:
Before AMSOIL, there was no API rated synthetic motor oil. Before other oil companies “discovered” synthetic motor oil, AMSOIL already had the first motor oils on the market for years. Before “fill for life” became an industry buzzword, AMSOIL was filling for life. Before specification GM4718M for General Motors synthetic factory fill was required, AMSOIL was already meeting the spec and making the grade. Before OEM’s began extending drain intervals, AMSOIL was extending. automotive drains to 25,000 miles and over-the-road diesels to many tens of thousands of miles. Before other oil manufactures were even concerned with volatility, AMSOIL was using and passing the NOACK Volatility Test to insure the highest quality, longest lasting motor oils. (AMSOIL had the first NOACK test equipment in the U.S.) Before improving engine performance was considered a goal of the other motor oil companies, it had been an accomplished fact with AMSOIL for many years. Before auto makers periodically increased the demands on motor oils, AMSOIL was meeting and exceeding those demands without reformulating. Before the rest of the industry understands what the lubrication performance challenges of today are, AMSOIL has already met those challenges. From the introduction of its first synthetic motor oil, AMSOIL has made it necessary for other oil companies to improve their products or fall behind. Thats the Amsoil story.
[ January 07, 2003, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 
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1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
Giles you must have been reading my mind while I was typing up my comments the same time and you beat me to it. Let me state that amsoils practices in my opinion isn't in anyway reflective of the dealers I have seen on this board and don't feel that there should be any apologies for that by them. I think as long as you represent it like it is, then there should be no problem. It's up to the individual dealers to be honest and make the right recommendations for their clients and that boils down to individual ethics which I have no qualm with any amsoil rep on here that I've seen. Unfortunate there are many that seem to not set that kind of standard and it tends to over flow onto the good ones reputations.
 
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3,023
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USA-Michigan
Bob, Everywhere you, there are good people and bad people. They make a bad name for the rest of use. Some are only driven by making money, nothing else. That is true for any business out there. Saying that the only ones that are shady or dishonest are only Amsoil dealers is wrong and I resent it.
 
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1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Mike: Bob, Everywhere you, there are good people and bad people. They make a bad name for the rest of use. Some are only driven by making money, nothing else. That is true for any business out there. Saying that the only ones that are shady or dishonest are only Amsoil dealers is wrong and I resent it.
Mike, better point me to the exact post/comment that I posted that stated that only amsoil dealers are dishonest and only amsoil dealers is wrong. I cannot see me saying that, help me out and show me.
 
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3,023
Location
USA-Michigan
quote:
Let me state that amsoils practices in my opinion isn't in anyway reflective of the dealers I have seen on this board and don't feel that there should be any apologies for that by them. I think as long as you represent it like it is, then there should be no problem. It's up to the individual dealers to be honest and make the right recommendations for their clients and that boils down to individual ethics which I have no qualm with any amsoil rep on here that I've seen. Unfortunate there are many that seem to not set that kind of standard and it tends to over flow onto the good ones reputations.
Let get on the case of Amsoil is bad, all lot of that goes on here. I realize you sell a competing product but why critize other manfs because you and other here don't like or have no idea what Amsoil policies are. I been a delaer for 25 yrs btw. I will shut and let you guys go on. [ January 07, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 
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3,845
Let the product speak for itself through used oil analysis results and leave the defense of ANY brand to the AD people. How many of any brand (including Amsoil) sales people started up a website as balanced and open as bobs ? I haven't found one or I'd be commenting there. I could give a flip about a brand name in todays marketing zoo.
 
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1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
quote:
Let me state that amsoils practices in my opinion isn't in anyway reflective of the dealers I have seen on this board and don't feel that there should be any apologies for that by them. I think as long as you represent it like it is, then there should be no problem. It's up to the individual dealers to be honest and make the right recommendations for their clients and that boils down to individual ethics which I have no qualm with any amsoil rep on here that I've seen. Unfortunate there are many that seem to not set that kind of standard and it tends to over flow onto the good ones reputations.
Let get on the case of Amsoil is bad, thats all that goes on here. I realize you sell a competing product but why critize other manfs because you and other here don't like or have no idea what Amsoil policies are. I been a delaer for 25 yrs btw. I will shut and let you guys go on.

Mike, Look, take it personally if you feel you want to. If you think I'm calling anyone anything in that statement, you are not reading the same thing I am and maybe you're english isn't the same as mine. What ever the reason is, I in no way stated that previous statement as you suggested,Saying" that the only ones that are shady or dishonest are only Amsoil dealers is wrong and I resent it". I can't imagine why you'd even come up with that since that was not even close to what I said. I guess I should resent you implying that I said that but I don't. I don't have a problem with amsoil or the dealers. I think everyone has their way to do it. Now, did I criize amsoil as you suggest?"I realize you sell a competing product but why critize other manfs because you and other here don't like or have no idea what Amsoil policies are. I been a delaer for 25 yrs btw." No, I only stated that api certification should not be disregarded when it come to warr issues. 25yrs of experience should tell you that IF a person that you recommended a non api oil to, had a claim and got denied do to the api issue(which has happened at many toyota's and lexus dealerships lately), Just who is going to take care of this problem when the oil company states it's not the oil? I am bringing out this point and it's not just amsoil, redline, schaeffers(non api full synth), everyone of them, then rest asured that in this world of lawyers, you'll be sittin in court trying to keep from buying that guys engine. It's business, and only if you had recommended the api xl7500 oil, then manufacture wouldn't have an issue now would they?. Be it as it may, do what you're doing. I am not getting on to amsoil, butI am getting on to the fact that this board provides awareness and again, What little bit of oil you sell to individual consumers isn't enough reason for me to "bash on amsoil" or pick on you. I don't need to do this to qualify if one oil is better or worse. I will spell this out for you one more time and go back and look at my previous post, NO WHERE DID I SAY AMSOIL IS A BAD OIL, AND NO WHERE DID I SUGGEST USING MINE OR ANYBODY ELSES, and I DID SUGGEST TO KEEP USING AMSOIL BUT USE THE API CERTIFIED XL SERIES OILS WHILE UNDER WARR. and ONCE OUT OF WARR, THEN SWITCH TO THE NON API GOOD STUFF. THIS ELIMINATES THE API ISSUE. Now, did you understand that? Please mike, look and re read this thread, there is nothing in here where I'm trying to talk people out of using a good oil such as amsoil. Ask anyone on here, I don't need to beat up on anyone. I try to be as balanced in my posts as possible and don't drag in schaeffers everytime I post. I only try to COMMENT ON THE TOPIC which is?? Topic: AMSOIL position on API Licensing
 
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