Amsoil Motorcycle Oil - why is API rating outdated?

[bulwnkl]

I'm wondering if the oil sellers haven't caught up to JASO T903:2023 yet.

I think that's unlikely, but I suppose it depends on what aspect of not 'caught up' you mean. Amsoil updated their data file in May of this year, and the longest-standing viscosity grades are not the ones with the oldest API claims.

Here's the data file:
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g3348.pdf

 

[bulwnkl]

JASO specs only refer to Japanese motorcycles.

I don't know where you got that idea.

Every current, wet-clutch European bike I can call immediately to mind specifies JASO MA (mostly they spec MA2 these days).

The owner's manual for the 2025 Indian Scout says:
"Engine oil for this vehicle needs to be JASO MA compliant."

 

[ZeeOSix]

I think that's unlikely, but I suppose it depends on what aspect of 'behind' you mean. Amsoil updated their data file in May of this year, and the longest-standing viscosity grades are not the ones with the oldest API claims.

Here's the data file:
https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g3348.pdf

When a bottle of oil, like Amsoil and others say the oil "Meets JASO MA/MA2" or whatever JASO spec, they don't put what version of the JASO spec it meets. Nobody would know any details unless they pulled a spec sheet of some kind like the PDF you linked to dig down into the API part of it.

I wouldn't worry much about the API rating of the JASO MA/MA2 rated oil.

 

[BigCahuna]

I don't know where you got that idea.

Every current, wet-clutch European bike I can call immediately to mind specifies JASO MA (mostly they spec MA2 these days).

The owner's manual for the 2025 Indian Scout says:
"Engine oil for this vehicle needs to be JASO MA compliant."

Please quote Harley's Jaso spec. I said in my post I wasn't sure what Indian specs. and let us know where you found that spec.,,

 

[bulwnkl]

When a bottle of oil, like Amsoil and others say the oil "Meets JASO MA/MA2" or whatever JASO spec, they don't put what version of the JASO spec it meets. Nobody would know any details unless they pulled a spec sheet of some kind like the PDF you linked to dig down into the API part of it.

I wouldn't worry much about the API rating of the JASO MA/MA2 rated oil.

Let's don't lose sight of OP's question, nor his owner's manual requirement:
"Does this signify an outdated product?"
"the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer"

JASO explicitly says when you can no longer claim T903 compliance to an outdated version of the spec, once an update is published. Like the API spec updates, there's lead time.

The guy's manual requires a newer API spec than Amsoil claims for the product in question.

So maybe your answer to OP is: Probably don't use the Amsoil 10W30 in your bike(?)

To reiterate: I don't normally run JASO-compliant oils in the bikes. They all say JASO MA somewhere on the bottles and on the websites, but none are listed by JASO and none meet all of the various requirements of JASO, so they're _NOT_ JASO-compliant fluids. I don't overly care, but I don't choose to contribute to the furtherance of ignorance and marketing lies this week.
(-:
If a person is highly attached to a JASO-compliant oil, they need to look at the certification list and pick a fluid from it.

 

[bulwnkl]

Please quote Harley's Jaso spec. I said in my post I wasn't sure what Indian specs. and let us know where you found that spec.,,

What are you talking about? You claimed that JASO only applies to Japanese motorcycles. That's both wrong and irrelevant to OP's questions or issues, and I gave examples. Harley-Davidson has nothing to do with anything here.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Looking at Amsoil’s 10w30 synthetic metric motorcycle oil. Noticing that the API rating is SH which seems very outdated, and the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer. Does this signify an outdated product?

Need some clarification on exactly what your owner's manual says for oil recommendations. What JASO spec does it call out? And what year is the bike, and what is the print date on the owner's manual?

 

[ZeeOSix]

To reiterate: I don't normally run JASO-compliant oils in the bikes. They all say JASO MA somewhere on the bottles and on the websites, but none are listed by JASO and none meet all of the various requirements of JASO, so they're _NOT_ JASO-compliant fluids. I don't overly care, but I don't choose to contribute to the furtherance of ignorance and marketing lies this week.

I've seen many motorcycle oils that say they meet JASO MA/MA2, but they don't have the official JASO registration logo on the bottle. Big name oils, like Castrol, Valvoline, etc that make motorcycle specific oil are this way. In fact, the Castrol Power 1 4T 10W-40 I have does not have the JASO registration logo, but it is listed in the JASO Implementation Panel list. Some oil sellers, like Rotella say meets JASO, and are not listed in the Panel List. Of course, anyone who's not into using JASO rated oil shouldn't really care what they use.

If the OP is concerned, then he should contact Amsoil and ask them for their viewpoint, and why there oil doesn't "officially" meet the newest version of JASO T903.

From July 1, 2024 JASO T903 List:

 

[ZeeOSix]

And here's the JASO registration logo on some Yamalube 10W-40. Notice that it actually shows the JASO T903 date version (Says "JASO T903:2001" ). But as noted above, it's not a firm requirement to put the JASO registration logo on the bottle, as shown by the Castrol Power 1 example.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Noticing that the API rating is SH which seems very outdated, and the manual to my Honda 300 calls for SJ or newer.

How about a photo or screen shot of your owner's manual.

My 2016 XSR900 owner's manual shows the following, and it has a catalytic converter, so Honda calling out a newer API probably isn't related to any catalytic converter requirements. It also does not call out any xW-30 as an option. They don't even call out JASO MA2 .. just the board JASO MA spec.

 

[BigCahuna]

What are you talking about? You claimed that JASO only applies to Japanese motorcycles. That's both wrong and irrelevant to OP's questions or issues, and I gave examples. Harley-Davidson has nothing to do with anything here.

Ok. looks like you need to slow down and read what I posted. Maybe you don't realise that Harley is not a Japanese or European manufactured motorcycle, it's a American brand of motorcycle. And lumping Harley's into Jaso specs looked like your not sure about what your saying. And why do you think Harley's have nothing to do with motorcycle oil specs?, after all it is a motorcycle.,,

 

[oil pan 4]

You want high additive oil not intended for use in catalytic converter equipped vehicles.
If I had a motorcycle I wouldn't be putting weak sauce sm rated oil in it.
Main thing is don't use a 30 weight modern PCMO.

 

[TrialKid]

You want high additive oil not intended for use in catalytic converter equipped vehicles.
If I had a motorcycle I wouldn't be putting weak sauce sm rated oil in it.
Main thing is don't use a 30 weight modern PCMO.

If I understand correctly, newer API ratings = weaker additive percentage ?.
In my country for example Motul 7100 get SP rating (don’t use it as an option, just refer it) and Castrol Power 1 Ultimate gives SL rating.
AMSOIL metric that I use on a mopped Honda on the bottle says :
API SH/SG/CF
JASO MA/MA2 • ISO-L-EMA2 (this one don’t know what it means)

 

[oil pan 4]

If I understand correctly, newer API ratings = weaker additive percentage ?.
In my country for example Motul 7100 get SP rating (don’t use it as an option, just refer it) and Castrol Power 1 Ultimate gives SL rating.
AMSOIL metric that I use on a mopped Honda on the bottle says :
API SH/SG/CF
JASO MA/MA2 • ISO-L-EMA2 (this one don’t know what it means)

View attachment 248567

View attachment 248568

Weaker additive package and the "30 weight oils" are held to a lighter additive package compared to 40 and 50 weight oils in the US.
Newer is generally weaker. The newer sn package brought back some of the detergents and next years sq package is supposed to really bring back the detergents.

 

[bulwnkl]

'Weaker' is a term borne of ignorance. The newer API ratings require lower wear than the older ones, and they achieve it. They couldn't do that if they had 'weaker' additive packages.

 

[TrialKid]

'Weaker' is a term borne of ignorance. The newer API ratings require lower wear than the older ones, and they achieve it. They couldn't do that if they had 'weaker' additive packages.

All this in theory or real life ?

Because real life is : I open engine until the bottom and get inspection to service limits on engine parts on a base oil brand.

In the past race on 2004 a 400cc Japan bike with F3 rules on a total 0 khm engine, compression was under 14:1 and as you understand race = I drink his blood the Motul 5100… (10W-40) every 3-4 hours and today I will not use it even on my chain.

Engine run 2 complete seasons without rebuild it, just clutch plates, clutch springs, spark plugs and valve adjustment.

Don’t want to to deny your opinion, just wanted to ask how ?

If newer API ratings , lower and lower the additives how it will protect engine ?

 

[bulwnkl]

I think you might be confusing the results you see from using one oil vs another that are due to better overall formulation or just better suitability to your use, but not because one has a newer API listing on the bottle and the other an older one. Also, racing often necessitates different oil than one would run on the street, in many ways. Comparing the two things is not necessarily helpful.

As I explained earlier in the thread, the JASO T903 spec has its own phosphorus and sulfated ash limits, so those API limits do not apply. That means that when the JASO T903 spec calls for a newer API spec, it does NOT require the phosphorus or sulfated ash limits in the API spec. The parts of the API spec which apply are things like deposit control, wear limits, oxidation limits, and sludge control. Those are all important things in a road vehicle engine (or at least I think they are, perhaps because I tend to put several times as many miles on my motorcycle(s) as most riders do).

To your question: The newer API specs require less of certain, older additives that contain a lot of phosphorous or high total sulfated ash. There are newer additives available that work extremely well instead, though they cost a bit more. Newer API-spec oils (broadly speaking, mostly for cars) use those in lieu of the older-tech additives. This topic has been extremely well covered on BITOG for some years now. I don't have bookmarks to threads, so I am unable to give you links to the numerous discussions; sorry.

 

[Bonz]

With respect to additives and "weaker" 30 wt oils, my main concern would be MOFT. I did some quick checking to confirm what I have been seeing, and Honda is the only main manufacturer that recommends a 10w30 as the "standard" oil. Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Triumph, Ducati, KTM, Royal Enfield, et al recommend a higher top end rating (xw40, xw50, etc).

Honda does not "do" anything different than the other named manufacturers in manufacturing their bikes, such as bearing tolerances where MOFT particularly comes into play. To my mind, it's purely a non necessary requirement to run that light of an oil from any mechanical wear advantage standpoint (colder temps not withstanding), and may sacrifice some things in the long run compared to a 10w40, 10w50, 20w50, etc.

Agree, more modern additives (boron, moly) do the same work as traditional (zinc) so not worried about that in the grand scheme no matter what oil weight it is.

 

[TrialKid]

With respect to additives and "weaker" 30 wt oils, my main concern would be MOFT. I did some quick checking to confirm what I have been seeing, and Honda is the only main manufacturer that recommends a 10w30 as the "standard" oil. Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Triumph, Ducati, KTM, Royal Enfield, et al recommend a higher top end rating (xw40, xw50, etc).

Honda does not "do" anything different than the other named manufacturers in manufacturing their bikes, such as bearing tolerances where MOFT particularly comes into play. To my mind, it's purely a non necessary requirement to run that light of an oil from any mechanical wear advantage standpoint (colder temps not withstanding), and may sacrifice some things in the long run compared to a 10w40, 10w50, 20w50, etc.

Agree, more modern additives (boron, moly) do the same work as traditional (zinc) so not worried about that in the grand scheme no matter what oil weight it is.

Honda recommend it as oil weight since 2006, and remove the oil weight / weather selection image over the owners manual, some say did it for Green environment and fuel economy.
Even on superbikes CBR 1000 RR SP same thing weight says 10W-30, now if you need rebuild to conrod metals , seized pistons or camshaft failure is another thing in future, bullet proof Honda don’t exist anymore (and rest Japan bikes, don’t refer user drive it occasionally redline, but for what design purposes)
Same thing read for Kawasaki on an old article that did with the superbike machine on WSBK scene, use 0-20 and engine send to Japan for rebuild / inspection, today they claim run Elf HTX 3835 (5/30) or HTX 3830 (0/30) or Motul 300 V2 0W-30.
a special version of this Motul also exist as HRC kit part for CBR 1000 RR SP , Motul 2172H or 2376H
But not spam more on API at AMSOIL.

2 versions use until today , Dirt Bike 10W-40 and Metric 10W-30
Don’t find any issues with fast riding, or engine wear

 

[Bonz]

I think it was definitely for the fractional gain in mpg/and or power gain.