AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS

[vitamin]

How does AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS compare to Selenia Quadrifoglio (Fiat 9.55535 GH2)? The AMSOIL lists fiat 9.55535-Z2—does that supercedes/includes GH2?

Just been getting some cold startup misfires after the dealer put in their MOPAR stuff (Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40) and wonder if perhaps that's not good enough for this finicky Italian engine.

 

[kschachn]

How does AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS compare to Selenia Quadrifoglio (Fiat 9.55535 GH2)? The AMSOIL lists fiat 9.55535-Z2—does that supercedes/includes GH2?

Just been getting some cold startup misfires after the dealer put in their MOPAR stuff (Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40) and wonder if perhaps that's not good enough for this finicky Italian engine.

Another interesting post. How do you suppose the oil choice affects the engine ignition system?

 

[ceecbtg]

Remember https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/fiat-9-55535-gh2.365272/

 

[vitamin]

Another interesting post. How do you suppose the oil choice affects the engine ignition system?

During cylinder deactivation, an oil with lower viscosity at high temps than the OEM spec could lead to more oil than expected getting past the piston ring seals into the combustion chamber, leading to excess carbon buildup, clogging of the PCV components, affecting the chemistry of the fuel/air mixture, etc.

Even in non-turbo engines, cylinder deactivation is thought to contribute to oil blow-by, because the piston ring seals are normally aided by outward pressure from combustion that helps keep oil on the other side of the seals, whereas when no combustion occurs, the vacuum effect created by the expanding volume of the combustion chamber could contribute to sucking oil past the seal. Higher viscosity oil creates a better seal so could help mitigate this effect.

In the thread,
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/fiat-9-55535-gh2.365272/, it was stated that the GH2 spec requires >15 viscosity at 100 C, whereas MOPAR's choice of OEM oil (Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40) has only 13.3.

 

[OVERKILL]

During cylinder deactivation, an oil with lower viscosity at high temps than the OEM spec could lead to more oil than expected getting past the piston ring seals into the combustion chamber, leading to excess carbon buildup, clogging of the PCV components, affecting the chemistry of the fuel/air mixture, etc.

How does the oil get from the chamber to the PCV components?

Even in non-turbo engines, cylinder deactivation is thought to contribute to oil blow-by, because the piston ring seals are normally aided by outward pressure from combustion that helps keep oil on the other side of the seals, whereas when no combustion occurs, the vacuum effect created by the expanding volume of the combustion chamber could contribute to sucking oil past the seal. Higher viscosity oil creates a better seal so could help mitigate this effect.

In the thread,
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/fiat-9-55535-gh2.365272/, it was stated that the GH2 spec requires >15 viscosity at 100 C, whereas MOPAR's choice of OEM oil (Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40) has only 13.3.

It certainly can contribute to oil consumption (blow-by is combustion gas entering the crankcase), depending on the design. Honda's VCM was rather notorious for this, particularly in the Odyssey vans. On the other hand, the MDS HEMI's don't appear to consume oil and they spec a 5W-20.

 

[OilUzer]

Are we talking about reverse blow-by, oil instead of gases?

My basic understanding of cylinder deactivation is that the exhaust gases (from the last ignition), remain in the cylinder with both exhaust and intake valves closed after the deactivation.

Hard for me to picture a significant or continuous "vacuum effect". Is this a real problem?
During the regular (activated) intake or exhaust cycles, there is also no "outward pressure" on the rings from the combustion. No? So what's stopping the reverse blow-by then?

 

[svenson]

that's funny, thats an explanation my dealer service mechanic gave me too, for the ignition problem i had.

 

[vitamin]

Forget I mentioned misfires, I just want to know the answer to this:

How does AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS compare to Selenia Quadrifoglio (Fiat 9.55535 GH2)? The AMSOIL lists fiat 9.55535-Z2—does that supercedes/includes GH2?

The AMSOIL is MS-10850, Porsche A40 etc. like the other oils that have MS-12991, I suspect they just didn't get the updated approval. But I wanted to confirm before putting it in my car...

 

[Miniguy]

Forget I mentioned misfires, I just want to know the answer to this:

How does AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS compare to Selenia Quadrifoglio (Fiat 9.55535 GH2)? The AMSOIL lists fiat 9.55535-Z2—does that supercedes/includes GH2?

The AMSOIL is MS-10850, Porsche A40 etc. like the other oils that have MS-12991, I suspect they just didn't get the updated approval. But I wanted to confirm before putting it in my car...

Play it safe, forget about price. Stick with the Selenia.

 

[kschachn]

Play it safe, forget about price. Stick with the Selenia.

So what’s special about that material specification?

 

[vitamin]

Play it safe, forget about price. Stick with the Selenia.

Well here's the thing. MOPAR US OEM oil is Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Euro 5W40, a Full-SAPS A3/B3/B4, API-SN oil. It lists MS-12991.

Meanwhile the car's manual says it should be C3 (mid-SAPS). The AMSOIL and Selenia are mid-SAPS, API-SN, C3 oils.

From wear tests I've seen, AMSOIL's Full-SAPS 5W40 performs as well or slightly better than the Pennzoil. I'm guessing the mid-SAPS might have a tiny bit more wear, but should be kinder on this car's three-way cats, and C3 is what the manual recommends.

Selenia is like another $100 plus expensive shipping, since it's not sold in the US and you have to mail order from an importer or import it yourself. So I just want to understand, what exactly is MS-12991 and what could be significantly different in the Selenia oil (which I cannot find any wear tests of, since it's a fairly esoteric product) compared to the AMSOIL.

Specs on the AMSOIL:

	AMSOIL 5W-40 MS	Selenia Quadrifoglio	Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40	Ravenol VMO
Viscosity @100C D445	14.3	15.1	13.3	13.3
@40C D445	88.5	?	80.8	80.0
Index D2270	168	169	167	170
CCS @-30C D5293	5855	?	6300	6375
MRV @-35C D4884	?	?	19,500	27,000
Density @15C D4052	?	0.849	0.848	?
Density @20C EN ISO 12185	?	?	?	848.0
Pour Point C (F) D97	-40 (-40)	-45 (-49)	-45 (-49)	-45 (-49)
Flash Point C D93	?	?	215	?
Flash Point C DIN EN ISO 2582	?	?	?	242
Flash Point C (F) D92	224 (435.2)	240	235	?
Fire Point C (F) D92	240 (464)	?	?	?
NOACK Volatility D5800	10%	?	?	8.8%
HTHS Viscosity D5481	3.8	?	?	4.0
TBN D2896	8	7.7	?	8.7
Chrysler	MS-10850	MS-10850, MS-12991	MS-10850, MS-12991	MS-11106 (?)
Fiat	?	9.55535-GH2	9.55535-Z2	9.55535-GH2
GM	dexos 2	?	?	dexos 2
MB	229.51	?	229.3, 229.5, 226.5	229.51, 229.31
API	B]

[TD]B][/TD]
[TD]B][/TD]
[TD]B][/TD]

[TR]
[TD]ACEA[/TD]
[TD]C3[/TD]
[TD]C3[/TD]
[TD]A3/B3/B4[/TD]
[TD]C3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Base[/TD]
[TD]IV+V[/TD]
[TD]IV (+V?)[/TD]
[TD]III GTL[/TD]

[TD]IV (+V?)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SAPS[/TD]
[TD]mid[/TD]
[TD]mid[/TD]
[TD]full[/TD]
[TD]mid[/TD]
[/TR]

(bold are stats that match my car's manual's recommended specs for the oil)

 

[incognito_2u]

How does AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS compare to Selenia Quadrifoglio (Fiat 9.55535 GH2)? The AMSOIL lists fiat 9.55535-Z2—does that supercedes/includes GH2?

Just been getting some cold startup misfires after the dealer put in their MOPAR stuff (Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40) and wonder if perhaps that's not good enough for this finicky Italian engine.

MultiAir Engine?
( Credit: 124spider.org )

 

[vitamin]

MultiAir Engine?
( Credit: 124spider.org )

2.9L V6 GDI twin-turbo Alfa 690T engine (based on Ferrari F154 design). The car has two three-way cats.

The table you showed above strongly implies that MS-12991 is for a full-SAPS 5W40. That's confusing because my car's manual says to use an oil meeting MS-12991 and ACEA C3—a conflicting requirement, if the former is strictly for full-SAPS and the latter is for mid-SAPS, unless the US-homologated car ships with full-SAPS-safe cats?

The OEM oil that MOPAR assigns for this car in USA is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, a full-SAPS oil (ACEA A3/B3/B4) meeting MS-12991 and Fiat 9.55535-Z2 (but not -GH2 or ACEA C3 that the manual says are recommended).

I do like the idea of a mid-SAPS oil though, as the lower ash will not just protect cats but also help prevent build-up on the intake valves, which is bad enough just from carbon on a turbo GDI.

AMSOIL has not paid Fiat to check their 5W-40 mid-SAPS, but its specs are very closer to what's listed for Selenia Quadrifoglio and other GH2-approved oils. They are all primary PAO Group IV base oils. AMSOIL also blends some Group V esters (not sure if they all do).

Another thread here claimed GH2 is just Z2 spec with >15 viscosity @100C. Selenia Quad has 15.1, AMSOIL has 14.3, but OEM Pennzoil meanwhile is lower viscosity at 13.3. And other GH2 oils have 13.x. So I don't know.

So unless there is some kind of additive package chemistry in AMSOIL that won't play nice in my Alfa, it seems like the best domestic US mid-SAPS alternative to Selenia Quadrifoglio (which is out of stock at Alfissimo and double the AMSOIL's price everywhere else). I don't think 0.8 viscosity difference is going to really matter since MOPAR puts an even lower viscosity in these cars and many people say Ravenol VMO or Krypton XT LA are fine (which both have 13.0).

Thoughts?

(I updated the table above with specs from each except Krypton.)

 

[Miniguy]

Well here's the thing. MOPAR US OEM oil is Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Euro 5W40, a Full-SAPS A3/B3/B4, API-SN oil. It lists MS-12991.

Meanwhile the car's manual says it should be C3 (mid-SAPS). The AMSOIL and Selenia are mid-SAPS, API-SN, C3 oils.

From wear tests I've seen, AMSOIL's Full-SAPS 5W40 performs as well or slightly better than the Pennzoil. I'm guessing the mid-SAPS might have a tiny bit more wear, but should be kinder on this car's three-way cats, and C3 is what the manual recommends.

Selenia is like another $100 plus expensive shipping, since it's not sold in the US and you have to mail order from an importer or import it yourself. So I just want to understand, what exactly is MS-12991 and what could be significantly different in the Selenia oil (which I cannot find any wear tests of, since it's a fairly esoteric product) compared to the AMSOIL.

Specs on the AMSOIL:

	AMSOIL 5W-40 MS	will add
Viscosity @100C	14.3
@40C	88.5
Index	168
CCS	5855 (-30)
Pour Point C (F)	-40 (-40)
Flash Point C (F)	224 (435.2)
Fire Point C (F)	240 (464)
NOACK Volatility	10%
HTHS Visc	3.8
TBN	8

No need to import. Buy from Alfissimo in California.

Kit: 5W-40–Patronas Selenia, Alfa Romeo Giulia/Stelvio FIAT 9.55535-GH2

Factory Fill Oil for your Alfa Romeo Giulia/Stelvio/4C

shop.alfissimo.com

 

[vitamin]

No need to import. Buy from Alfissimo in California.

Kit: 5W-40–Patronas Selenia, Alfa Romeo Giulia/Stelvio FIAT 9.55535-GH2

Factory Fill Oil for your Alfa Romeo Giulia/Stelvio/4C

shop.alfissimo.com

They were out of stock when I checked earlier today. I'm not against it, but just want to understand what the technical reason is why it's worth paying $100 extra. Like what is so special about this particular oil, and if it's so special then why does MOPAR have their dealers put full-SAPS Pennzoil Platinum Euro into the same cars in US dealer service depts.? (Not that I expect anyone to necessarily know why MOPAR does what it does, but it would be nice to understand better about the oil. Trying to separate marketing mumbo-jumbo from engineering realities.)

 

[Marcozi]

Go with the Amsoil that's closed to the factory specs.

 

[OVERKILL]

If the car doesn't have a GPF, worrying about SAPS is pointless unless it absolutely drinks oil. Lots of E39 M5's (particularly the pre 03/00 cars) that absolutely chugged oil and didn't have catalyst issues.

 

[kschachn]

If the car doesn't have a GPF, worrying about SAPS is pointless unless it absolutely drinks oil. Lots of E39 M5's (particularly the pre 03/00 cars) that absolutely chugged oil and didn't have catalyst issues.

Agreed. Fiat doesn’t have some uber secret decoder ring requirement. From what I could find online it appears it was mostly a long-drain capability.

 

[vitamin]

Agreed. Fiat doesn’t have some uber secret decoder ring requirement. From what I could find online it appears it was mostly a long-drain capability.

Reading some other threads, it seems not uncommon for Euro car OEMs to require C3 (mid/low SAPS) for a given petrol car in Europe, but for the US they want full-SAPS A3/B3/B4. Apparently this is because some states have gasoline that's higher in sulphur, which depletes the C3 oil's protection package faster than A3/B3/B4. Plus the US has less strict emissions rules and FS oil is generally thought slightly better at wear protection.

That being said, on a GDI car, lower ash could help prevent deposits on the intake valves, so there is something to be said for a cleaner oil here. Not sure how much difference it makes though.

Pennzoil seems to think its GTL oil already has very low sulphur so maybe it's a best of both worlds, which could explain why MOPAR went with it for the US market (also price) though a lack of public NOACK test data on this stuff is annoying to me.

Anyway I got some of the C3 Amsoil so will try it for a few k, I am sure running it for 5k is not gonna make or break my car either way. Weird marketing model aside, they seem like a decent brand.

 

[Miniguy]

Reading some other threads, it seems not uncommon for Euro car OEMs to require C3 (mid/low SAPS) for a given petrol car in Europe, but for the US they want full-SAPS A3/B3/B4. Apparently this is because some states have gasoline that's higher in sulphur, which depletes the C3 oil's protection package faster than A3/B3/B4. Plus the US has less strict emissions rules and FS oil is generally thought slightly better at wear protection.

That being said, on a GDI car, lower ash could help prevent deposits on the intake valves, so there is something to be said for a cleaner oil here. Not sure how much difference it makes though.

Pennzoil seems to think its GTL oil already has very low sulphur so maybe it's a best of both worlds, which could explain why MOPAR went with it for the US market (also price) though a lack of public NOACK test data on this stuff is annoying to me.

Anyway I got some of the C3 Amsoil so will try it for a few k, I am sure running it for 5k is not gonna make or break my car either way. Weird marketing model aside, they seem like a decent brand.

So if Alfa wanted full-SAPS for the US market, why is the factory-fill for US cars still C3?