AMSOIL Euro 5W-40 MS

[vitamin]

So if Alfa wanted full-SAPS for the US market, why is the factory-fill for US cars still C3?

No idea if it is, or not.

All I know is that the OEM MOPAR oil for the car is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, a full-SAPS oil. Why would the OEM oil not be C3 if the car ships from factory with C3? Maybe the Italians just can't be asked to vary the oil used on assembly line depending on the market?

Sure is confusing for an owner.

 

[CleanSump]

Maybe the Europe based OEM is thinking like BMW and MB that North American fuel sulfur levels were not low enough, or not consistently low enough at the time the car was manufactured, to risk the lower SAPS oils with longer drain intervals customers wanted/expected.
BMW didn't back spec high SAPS LL01 to mid SAPS LL04 in North America when they did in Europe for that reason.

 

[Miniguy]

No idea if it is, or not.

All I know is that the OEM MOPAR oil for the car is Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W40, a full-SAPS oil. Why would the OEM oil not be C3 if the car ships from factory with C3? Maybe the Italians just can't be asked to vary the oil used on assembly line depending on the market?

Sure is confusing for an owner.

Confusing for sure. My assumption that the factory-fill is C3 may be totally wrong. For all we know, the factory may have a stash of Pennzoil or the equivalent Shell just for US bound QVs.

 

[Miniguy]

Confusing for sure. My assumption that the factory-fill is C3 may be totally wrong. For all we know, the factory may have a stash of Pennzoil or the equivalent Shell just for US bound QVs.

Though very unlikely since this sticker appears under the hood of every QV.

 

[giantkingsquid]

FWIW, in Australia the recommendations are: Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40, Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4, Mobil 1 0w-40 etc.

All A3/B4 type oils.

 

[Miniguy]

FWIW, in Australia the recommendations are: Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40, Castrol Edge 0w-40 A3/B4, Mobil 1 0w-40 etc.

All A3/B4 type oils.

Is that what’s in the Australia owners manual?

 

[giantkingsquid]

Is that what’s in the Australia owners manual?

No, just what the oil companies are recommending.

 

[giantkingsquid]

Australian owners manual states 5w-40 C3. I found the pdf online, see page 264 of the pdf.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Reading some other threads, it seems not uncommon for Euro car OEMs to require C3 (mid/low SAPS) for a given petrol car in Europe, but for the US they want full-SAPS A3/B3/B4. Apparently this is because some states have gasoline that's higher in sulphur, which depletes the C3 oil's protection package faster than A3/B3/B4. Plus the US has less strict emissions rules and FS oil is generally thought slightly better at wear protection.

That being said, on a GDI car, lower ash could help prevent deposits on the intake valves, so there is something to be said for a cleaner oil here. Not sure how much difference it makes though.

Pennzoil seems to think its GTL oil already has very low sulphur so maybe it's a best of both worlds, which could explain why MOPAR went with it for the US market (also price) though a lack of public NOACK test data on this stuff is annoying to me.

Anyway I got some of the C3 Amsoil so will try it for a few k, I am sure running it for 5k is not gonna make or break my car either way. Weird marketing model aside, they seem like a decent brand.

That is no longer the case being that the US moved to ULSG a couple of years ago. BMW, VW/Porsche, and I believe Mercedes use ACEA Cx oils.

 

[vitamin]

That is no longer the case being that the US moved to ULSG a couple of years ago. BMW, VW/Porsche, and I believe Mercedes use ACEA Cx oils.

Why do they use C3 though? Can anyone provide a link to a study showing mid-SAPS is actually is good for the car in some way?

So far it just seems like a gimmick that was only implemented to satisfy Euro 6 emissions rules motivated by climate change hysteria and a desire to simplify Europe's supply chain with an oil that works in both gas and diesel.

However I have been unable to find any objective peer-reviewed study to support the idea that lowering SAPS from A3 levels down to C3 levels increases gasoline TWC/GPF catalyst lifespan in practical use. The only experimental study I could find on the subject is a 2017 paper by Bernardorff et al., which indicates that a vehicle that consumed 9kg of full-SAPS oil (1.17% SAPS content) did not incur any impaired function of its GPF cats—and less than half the deposited material in the cats came from the oil. The rest of the cat poison was from other sources, such as wear metals and fuel. That study speculated that a mid-SAPS oil "could" also "satisfy the durability requirements of a GPF equipped engine"—not exactly a glowing endorsement. Seems to me, you could actually clog your GPF just as fast with mid-SAPS in a gasoline car if the oil sacrifices wear protection to such an extent that any reduction of SAPS poison from the oil gets made up for by an increase in wear metal poison going straight from the walls of your engine into the GPF.

However I'm sure I know less than anyone else here so I'm curious to know what the research shows.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Why do they use C3 though? Can anyone provide a link to a study showing mid-SAPS is actually is good for the car in some way?

So far it just seems like a gimmick that was only implemented to satisfy Euro 6 emissions rules motivated by climate change hysteria and a desire to simplify Europe's supply chain with an oil that works in both gas and diesel.

The use C3, C2, and C5 in the US. ULSG has been used in parts of Europe and the UK for over a decade. This occurred so that oils could be formulated with a reduction in certain additives which would turn to ash when burned. At the time oils with a HTHS of 3.5 or greater was the standard fill. This is ACEA C3. The purpose of ACEA Cx oils is to prolong the life of emissions components such as the DPF (diesel), TWC (three-way catalyst for gasoline), and currently the OPF (Gasoline). Some oil consumption is normal in this region due to the high speeds achieved on some European highways (ex, German Autobahn) so regulators don't want premature failure of the emissions components.

Beginning in the mid 2015's European automakers began moving to lower viscosity 30 and 20 grades. Enter ACEA C5 (20 grades) and C2 (30 grades HTHS under 3.5), The US moved to ULSG in 2020 so as you can see the transition to 20 grades occurred prior to the transition to ULSG. This is why, IMO, ACEA C3 oils are not recommended by automakers today in the US as it would have a negative impact on their CAFE rating and would be illegal since their engines were certified on a lower viscosity oil.

However I have been unable to find any objective peer-reviewed study to support the idea that lowering SAPS from A3 levels down to C3 levels increases gasoline TWC/GPF catalyst lifespan in practical use. The only experimental study I could find on the subject is a 2017 paper by Bernardorff et al., which indicates that a vehicle that consumed 9kg of full-SAPS oil (1.17% SAPS content) did not incur any impaired function of its GPF cats—and less than half the deposited material in the cats came from the oil. The rest of the cat poison was from other sources, such as wear metals and fuel. That study speculated that a mid-SAPS oil "could" also "satisfy the durability requirements of a GPF equipped engine"—not exactly a glowing endorsement. Seems to me, you could actually clog your GPF just as fast with mid-SAPS in a gasoline car if the oil sacrifices wear protection to such an extent that any reduction of SAPS poison from the oil gets made up for by an increase in wear metal poison going straight from the walls of your engine into the GPF.

However I'm sure I know less than anyone else here so I'm curious to know what the research shows.

As for this study your interpretation of the conclusion is incorrect. In any case studies related to DPF/TWC were done before the emissions regulations were put in place back in the late 2000's. As far as "sacrifices in wear" anecdotal comments indicated that then current C3 oils (circa 2009) would exhibit slightly more wear at the end of the service life of the engine. The amount was never quantified and oil formulations have changed since then. However, it's also worth noting that ACEA C3 oils must meet the same performance requirements as ACEA A3/B4. This holds for all ACEA Cx oils vs their Ax/Bx counterparts. You can look it up yourself.

The European market has been running around on ACEA Cx oils for over a decade.

 

[vitamin]

The purpose of ACEA Cx oils is to prolong the life of emissions components

And the purpose of Formula 1's 2022 rule changes was to make races more competitive so it wasn't just the same guy winning almost every race. But purpose and effect are often at odds.

That being said, if mid-SAPS makes a measurable impact on catalyst life in gas cars without a worse trade-off to engine wear, then can you provide some links to real-world scientific studies to support that hypothesis?

 

[kschachn]

That being said, if mid-SAPS makes a measurable impact on catalyst life in gas cars without a worse trade-off to engine wear, then can you provide some links to real-world scientific studies to support that hypothesis?

It's not really "mid-SAPS" as much as it's lowered phosphorus. Yes I know "P" is in SAPS.

Are you denying that phosphorus doesn't and can't poison the catalyst? Many, many studies on this mechanism with clear chemistry.

 

[vitamin]

it's also worth noting that ACEA C3 oils must meet the same performance requirements as ACEA A3/B4

That doesn't mean the best C3 oils exceed those requirements by the same degree as the best A3/B4 oils or that they do so without increasing the risk of LSPI or other side effects. It also doesn't mean they actually increase catalyst life in practical use to an extent that makes any other tradeoffs (like higher NOACK volatility or worse cold weather performance) worth it.

I'm just looking for the best oil for my car, not the best oil for sayisfying European rules and generating lots of patents and profits for additive companies.

 

[vitamin]

Are you denying that phosphorus doesn't and can't poison the catalyst? Many, many studies on this mechanism with clear chemistry.

Show me a scientific, real-world study (with a control and a statistically valid sample size) on actual road-going gasoline cars where the catalyst life was actually improved.

The controversial lab studies where they rigged unrealistic oil consumption levels are not persuasive... and you can't assume the same logic from oil-burning diesel applies.

 

[kschachn]

Show me a scientific, real-world study (with a control and a statistically valid sample size) on actual road-going gasoline cars where the catalyst life was actually improved.

The controversial lab studies where they rigged unrealistic oil consumption levels are not persuasive... and you can't assume the same logic from oil-burning diesel applies.

I think it’s pretty clear that you have some agenda here that isn’t being confirmed as you would like.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

And the purpose of Formula 1's 2022 rule changes was to make races more competitive so it wasn't just the same guy winning almost every race. But purpose and effect are often at odds.

That being said, if mid-SAPS makes a measurable impact on catalyst life in gas cars without a worse trade-off to engine wear, then can you provide some links to real-world scientific studies to support that hypothesis?

I have no interest in trying to search for studies done in Europe over 20 years ago. Again these oils have been used in Europe for almost 20 years so I don't understand what "proof" you're looking for.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

That doesn't mean the best C3 oils exceed those requirements by the same degree as the best A3/B4 oils or that they do so without increasing the risk of LSPI or other side effects. It also doesn't mean they actually increase catalyst life in practical use to an extent that makes any other tradeoffs (like higher NOACK volatility or worse cold weather performance) worth it.

I'm just looking for the best oil for my car, not the best oil for sayisfying European rules and generating lots of patents and profits for additive companies.

The tests under the ACEA or any individual automakers own approval are essentially scored as pass/fail. You'll NEVER know how well an oil performed because that's proprietary information. We can estimate but you'll never know for sure. FWIW Blackstone has seen no statistically significant difference in terms of wear when comparing oils of the same grade.

As for LSPI, it's an engine tuning issue which came about in the last couple of years with some automakers who were trying to meet their fleetwide fuel efficiency targets. The fix was to alter the composition of additives (reducing Ca, increasing Mg) and API SN+ was born. Until recently this had NOTHING to do with ACEA or euro spec oils. The ACEA did end up creating ACEA C6 and A7/B7 for oils which under go the same LSPI and TGDI chain wear test as SP. Mercedes 229.52 approval does have a LSPI test.

NOACK requirements are the same.

https://www.acea.auto/files/2021_ACEA_oil_sequences_light-duty_engines.pdf

 

[CleanSump]

That is no longer the case being that the US moved to ULSG a couple of years ago. BMW, VW/Porsche, and I believe Mercedes use ACEA Cx oils.

Yes, however, BMW backward spec'd LL04 to LL01 engines in Europe long before doing so in NA. If one goes to the owner's manuals for years prior to when ULS gasoline was standardized in the US, cars that were spec'd LL04 in Europe were spec'd LL01 in NA.
Didn't mean to start a war with those who don't know the US lagged behind and European manufactures knew it, just noting that it was common discussion on BMW and MB forums for some years that NA cars weren't spec'd for C3 type oils for a while after the US mandated ULS gasoline.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Yes, however, BMW backward spec'd LL04 to LL01 engines in Europe long before doing so in NA. If one goes to the owner's manuals for years prior to when ULS gasoline was standardized in the US, cars that were spec'd LL04 in Europe were spec'd LL01 in NA.
Didn't mean to start a war with those who don't know the US lagged behind and European manufactures knew it, just noting that it was common discussion on BMW and MB forums for some years that NA cars weren't spec'd for C3 type oils for a while after the US mandated ULS gasoline.

The thing is that BMW has never officially back spec'd LL04 in the US for petrol cars probably for regulatory reasons. Beginning around 2015 they moved to sub 3.5 hths 30 grades (LL01FE for N-series gas engines and LL12FE for N47/57 diesels ).