You know, Amsoil does a lot of testing. Why not run their oil through the same testing as required by the API and publish the results? At least that show the oil "meets or exceeds" the API tests. Ditto for whatever specialized tests are required by certain OEMs. I didn't read each and every post in this thread, so hopefully this is not a lame repeat of someone else's post.
Amsoil & Certifications
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The cost for testing against all of the specifications claimed would likely exceed one million dollars, even if the oil passed on the first run.
Tom NJ
Tom NJ
Thank you tom.
That should be a reason that almost anyone can understand!
That should be a reason that almost anyone can understand!
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It is a shame such deceptive tactics exist, but they do, and through proper choice of words companies can get away with it.
That's why it's best to look for the actual Donut and Starburst, assuming one's engine specifies API/ILSAC oils. Way down the road, after warranty, it's not so much a biggie.
With respect to the comments about "faith," rest assured that I'd have "faith" in the non-API offerings of companies like Amsoil, RP, and Red Line. It would be companies like City Star that would worry me.
It is a shame such deceptive tactics exist, but they do, and through proper choice of words companies can get away with it.
That's why it's best to look for the actual Donut and Starburst, assuming one's engine specifies API/ILSAC oils. Way down the road, after warranty, it's not so much a biggie.
With respect to the comments about "faith," rest assured that I'd have "faith" in the non-API offerings of companies like Amsoil, RP, and Red Line. It would be companies like City Star that would worry me.
MolaKule
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Quote:
I have to go to the High Holy House of Oil and be restored!
I will be taking confessions via PM.
Just leave $25 dollars in the plate so I can get my next oil drain tested.
I have to go to the High Holy House of Oil and be restored!
I will be taking confessions via PM.
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No, I didn't mean test for the certs, but they have to know what those tests entail. Simply run the same tests and publish the test results to assuage the naysayers. They run comparison tests of all sorts of oil to their own benefit for advertising. This would be just another series of tests.
Like Tom said, even just doing the tests would be expensive without the certification...the test rigs are novel, like flat tappet 3.8V-6s, but I agree with Tom, don't claim something that you haven't tested...and don't use beating an approved/certified oil on 4 ball as showing how well you "exceed" the test by flogging a certified oil in an irrelevant test.
IIRC, as a blender, you can buy pre-approved additive packs, with a list of basestocks and recipes that will give a certifiable oil, sans the testing ???
IIRC, as a blender, you can buy pre-approved additive packs, with a list of basestocks and recipes that will give a certifiable oil, sans the testing ???
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It is a shame such deceptive tactics exist, but they do, and through proper choice of words companies can get away with it.
That's why it's best to look for the actual Donut and Starburst, assuming one's engine specifies API/ILSAC oils. Way down the road, after warranty, it's not so much a biggie.
With respect to the comments about "faith," rest assured that I'd have "faith" in the non-API offerings of companies like Amsoil, RP, and Red Line. It would be companies like City Star that would worry me.
I see you have faith in the SOPUS line, so do I.
I'd want them in my corner if I had a problem, much more than the company in question. JMO
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
It is a shame such deceptive tactics exist, but they do, and through proper choice of words companies can get away with it.
That's why it's best to look for the actual Donut and Starburst, assuming one's engine specifies API/ILSAC oils. Way down the road, after warranty, it's not so much a biggie.
With respect to the comments about "faith," rest assured that I'd have "faith" in the non-API offerings of companies like Amsoil, RP, and Red Line. It would be companies like City Star that would worry me.
I see you have faith in the SOPUS line, so do I.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
No, I didn't mean test for the certs, but they have to know what those tests entail. Simply run the same tests and publish the test results to assuage the naysayers. They run comparison tests of all sorts of oil to their own benefit for advertising. This would be just another series of tests.
That is the cost of just the tests. Certification costs are very low.
Tom NJ
No, I didn't mean test for the certs, but they have to know what those tests entail. Simply run the same tests and publish the test results to assuage the naysayers. They run comparison tests of all sorts of oil to their own benefit for advertising. This would be just another series of tests.
That is the cost of just the tests. Certification costs are very low.
Tom NJ
MolaKule
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IIRC, as a blender, you can buy pre-approved additive packs, with a list of basestocks and recipes that will give a certifiable oil, sans the testing ???
True, and that's what you do if you want to meet the minimum API standards and have the final formulation tested according to, or against the API protocols.
But what if you want to develop a formulated package beyond the minimum API standards and not use the pre-packaged add pack?
IIRC, as a blender, you can buy pre-approved additive packs, with a list of basestocks and recipes that will give a certifiable oil, sans the testing ???
True, and that's what you do if you want to meet the minimum API standards and have the final formulation tested according to, or against the API protocols.
But what if you want to develop a formulated package beyond the minimum API standards and not use the pre-packaged add pack?
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step up to the plate and do the testing to prove your claims maybe ?
Doesn't mean that you have to certify.
Honestly, if any oil is so much better than the basic API stuff in the real world, why even mention it.
I meet or exceed third grade math...not much of a claim really.
Doesn't mean that you have to certify.
Honestly, if any oil is so much better than the basic API stuff in the real world, why even mention it.
I meet or exceed third grade math...not much of a claim really.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Take the off the shelf additive, and basestock (and it could be a synthetic or blend too), and make an API compliant and certified oil.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
) like many of us do/have done, and instinctively it's a better oil...but if I then onsell my brew, can I claim to the punter that the new brew meets API standards ?
I can tell them what I did to make my oil "better" than the standard mix, but at least I told them...and it's still on their head in their equipment.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
I can tell them what I did to make my oil "better" than the standard mix, but at least I told them...and it's still on their head in their equipment.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Take the off the shelf additive, and basestock (and it could be a synthetic or blend too), and make an API compliant and certified oil.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
) like many of us do/have done, and instinctively it's a better oil...but if I then onsell my brew, can I claim to the punter that the new brew meets API standards ?
Not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no. Blending two API certified oils does not give you an API certified oil as the two oils may have different additives from different suppliers that have not been tested together, and the mixture may not perform as well.
Tom NJ
Take the off the shelf additive, and basestock (and it could be a synthetic or blend too), and make an API compliant and certified oil.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
Not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no. Blending two API certified oils does not give you an API certified oil as the two oils may have different additives from different suppliers that have not been tested together, and the mixture may not perform as well.
Tom NJ
"They definitely did not want anyone to know they started using Grp III's in the mix and the slightly higher NOACK is one indicator of base oils used. "
Neither did Mobil 1 when they switched over to Group III in their oils. At least Amsoil PUBLISHES their NOACKS which confirms their use of PAO in their Signature Series.....where
O where are Mobil 1's Pray Tell ????
Neither did Mobil 1 when they switched over to Group III in their oils. At least Amsoil PUBLISHES their NOACKS which confirms their use of PAO in their Signature Series.....where
O where are Mobil 1's Pray Tell ????
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Take the off the shelf additive, and basestock (and it could be a synthetic or blend too), and make an API compliant and certified oil.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
) like many of us do/have done, and instinctively it's a better oil...but if I then onsell my brew, can I claim to the punter that the new brew meets API standards ?
Not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no. Blending two API certified oils does not give you an API certified oil as the two oils may have different additives from different suppliers that have not been tested together, and the mixture may not perform as well.
Tom NJ
Pretty much my point really
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Take the off the shelf additive, and basestock (and it could be a synthetic or blend too), and make an API compliant and certified oil.
Throw in 1 qt/gal of Redline, some Schaeffers, SXup (still got some
Not sure if that is a rhetorical question, but the answer is no. Blending two API certified oils does not give you an API certified oil as the two oils may have different additives from different suppliers that have not been tested together, and the mixture may not perform as well.
Tom NJ
Pretty much my point really
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I think just getting a few of the major Euro certs would be more than enough. They are extremely demanding.
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Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Most cars in use in North America don't need "Euro certs".
They are in the minority in North America.
Right. Most NA cars don't need ANY fancy certs, which certainly dampens the purpose of this thread. AMSOIL has TWO lines of oil with API certification, which is all the vast majority of American and Asian cars call for.
HOWEVER, since they are a boutique blender with a premium product line, certifying THAT line of oil for something a little less pedestrian, something with a bit more prestige like those of BMW or Mercedes would certainly aide in their oils being used by "that crowd". And, since their premium line of oils are specifically noted to be extended drain oils, and many of the Euro certs are aimed at extended drains themselves (LL-01 for example) then those things would go hand-in-hand.
Most cars in North America don't need "Euro certs", you are correct. Most cars in North American don't need synthetic oil either. So attempting to belittle my point about Euro certs being relevant really doesn't make sense here. We are talking about a premium priced boutique product aimed at the extended drain and "I want the best" crowd. Obviously the Euro stuff is relevant enough to AMSOIL that they make two specific grades of oil for that audience. If you are making an extended drain product, and the pioneers in extended drains are the Euro manu's, then catering to that audience by certifying against their (far more stringent) specs makes a lot more sense then getting some mediocre domestic or Asian spec that every conventional oil on the shelf meets.
Most cars in use in North America don't need "Euro certs".
They are in the minority in North America.
Right. Most NA cars don't need ANY fancy certs, which certainly dampens the purpose of this thread. AMSOIL has TWO lines of oil with API certification, which is all the vast majority of American and Asian cars call for.
HOWEVER, since they are a boutique blender with a premium product line, certifying THAT line of oil for something a little less pedestrian, something with a bit more prestige like those of BMW or Mercedes would certainly aide in their oils being used by "that crowd". And, since their premium line of oils are specifically noted to be extended drain oils, and many of the Euro certs are aimed at extended drains themselves (LL-01 for example) then those things would go hand-in-hand.
Most cars in North America don't need "Euro certs", you are correct. Most cars in North American don't need synthetic oil either. So attempting to belittle my point about Euro certs being relevant really doesn't make sense here. We are talking about a premium priced boutique product aimed at the extended drain and "I want the best" crowd. Obviously the Euro stuff is relevant enough to AMSOIL that they make two specific grades of oil for that audience. If you are making an extended drain product, and the pioneers in extended drains are the Euro manu's, then catering to that audience by certifying against their (far more stringent) specs makes a lot more sense then getting some mediocre domestic or Asian spec that every conventional oil on the shelf meets.
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