Amsoil & Certifications

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
And if we include the list above, of course M1 0w40's list is a lot longer. And as you know, I was including the above list when making the statement I made.

I realize that, but it doesn't change the fact that M1 0w-40 hasn't been officially certified for these specs. To me that's no different than Amsoil claiming that an oil is good for such and such application, but hasn't been officially certified for it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Lets make this more fun, I'll quote the Canadian PDS

Quote:
Specifications & Approvals

Mobil 1 0W-40 meets or exceeds the following industry
specifications:

- ACEA A3,B3,B4
- API SM, SL,SJ,EC,CF

Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builder approvals:
BMW LL-01
Daimler Chrysler 229.3/229.5
Opel Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025
Opel Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025
Porsche Approved
Volkswagen 502.00/505.00,503.01



clear as mud now? LOL!

 

[Quattro Pete]

LOL!

Also, haven't some of these GM LL specs been superseded by new GM specs already?

Also, does anyone have any info on these various FIAT specs? Curious if they bring in anything new to the picture that the other mfg specs don't already cover...

 

[dave1251]

Yeah it comes down to this in busters opinion XOM good, Amsoil bad. He has been stating his opinion in a round about way for 9 years at least.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
LOL!

Also, haven't some of these GM LL specs been superseded by new GM specs already?

Also, does anyone have any info on these various FIAT specs? Curious if they bring in anything new to the picture that the other mfg specs don't already cover...


Oh, likely. It is funny though that the ones that you had mentioned you thought were the equivalent of "recommended for..." show up as listed under "manufacturer approvals" on the Canadian PDS

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Yeah it comes down to this in busters opinion XOM good, Amsoil bad. He has been stating his opinion in a round about way for 9 years at least.


Not true at all. You're selectively choosing certain things I've said in the past. There are a lot of things I like about Amsoil.

 

[buster]

Many people have changed their opinions over the years as oils have changed. My biggest criticism of Amsoil is some of their marketing. I brought this up because I was curious why they don't just certify their SS line or prove somehow it passed all the required testing.

I would at least attempt to get some of the Euro certs. Those are often required in some very expensive cars. I would not play around with non approved oils in those applications.

 

[nepadriver]

Just a guess here but...How much do certs cost? Where does that money end up? For example, another industry, Microsoft didn't want to add an external Blu Ray drive to the Xbox 360 , even after HD DVD failed, simply because Sony sits on the board of Blu Ray Disc Association. And the fees they would pay indirectly goto Sony in some small way or be perceived as a corporate failure on their part for choosing HD DVD originally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association

 

[Shannow]

Yeah, but if the API is so bad and backward, why even use their terminology in stating Amsoil's "goodness".

Give a list of cars and oils that are recommended for them, back them with the warranty, and drop all the API, Magnussen Moss verbage etc.

"This is THE best oil for your vehicle regardless of what the API and the OEM say, and we'll warrant that all the way to the bank !!!"

 

[ltslimjim]

^Well of course they must reference the "American" standard, it is an American company/American sold.

Flip the coin, what if this were a boutique Euro oil company? This would be a non-issue.

Besides, OE and XL are API. What's all the fuss? Anyone got the gonads to suggest their SS oils aren't as good as their OE or XL? ...

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
we must not foregt we are a Global community!

Standards are a great way of ensuring we are getting what we pay for or what is required in any circumstance. True the API lost the plot several years ago and have fought hard to gain respect agin. I believe they have largely done that - spurred along by ACEA and other Manufacturers of course. ACEA also spills into a large Global platform!

That platform includes Asia and in particular China. China has sealed up much of the available oil supplies and their Refineries are going to be Global Leaders. At this moment a Chinese Oil Co is actually a larger supplier than XoM

The Chinese are eager to uplift their lubricant standards rapidly and especially in synthetics (Group 4) production. They are using API and ACEA standards and those specified by the vehicle Manufacturers

In a Global sense Amsoil (and other Boutique suppliers) are simple small pimples. They can chose the Markets they aie for. They must be doing it OK as they have survived the GFC!

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
^Well of course they must reference the "American" standard, it is an American company/American sold.

Flip the coin, what if this were a boutique Euro oil company? This would be a non-issue.

Besides, OE and XL are API. What's all the fuss? Anyone got the gonads to suggest their SS oils aren't as good as their OE or XL? ...

The SS line is better in many ways. The only question I have is you really don't know just going by product data sheets and there may be a few tests/instances where the SS line is not better than the XL. As I've said many times now, Amsoil has been around for awhile and I don't think quality is really an issue for them. How they market themselves and claim superiority is suspect.

Take the Porsche spec as an example. I would trust Porsche more than I would an oil blender claiming their oil is superior by using a 4-ball wear test, TFOUT, TBN, and Pour Point comparison. You just spent $70k for a Porsche, and you think you know better than Porsche as to what oil it needs?



Porsche Spec

 

[ltslimjim]

^Well of course, a very specific art that is an impressively made vehicle like a Porsche or another exotic/high performance type of vehicle(specifically the engine); has differing needs and SHOULD be tested to their SPECIFIC needs. Making sure an expensive vehicle has it's needs met is important.

I don't own a Porsche, though.

Though, I would venture to talk about an app like a Nissan/Infiniti G37 coupe, their 'track ready' models. More common on the local streets than a Porsche, IMO.

Aren't these known to have excessive oil temps, what standards do THEY ask in their manual for these vehicles?

PS: Interesting comment, Doug H.

 

[buster]

I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to be mistaken for thinking that a small boutique blender can't blend a better oil. My question is, how do you know if it's not tested against the benchmark? I often like the to pull for the little guy, but Amsoil's 4-ball wear test and Royal Purple's timken test are not convincing at all. If anything it hurts their credibility. At least Pennzoil and Valvoline chose legitimate engine testing to market their oil.

Btw, Royal Purple has 3x the amount of sulfur allowed by the API.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Just a guess here but...How much do certs cost? Where does that money end up? For example, another industry, Microsoft didn't want to add an external Blu Ray drive to the Xbox 360 , even after HD DVD failed, simply because Sony sits on the board of Blu Ray Disc Association. And the fees they would pay indirectly goto Sony in some small way or be perceived as a corporate failure on their part for choosing HD DVD originally.


To obtain an approval or certification, the oil company needs to conduct all of the tests required under the specification, either through the OEM or at an independent laboratory. The cost, which is usually hundreds of thousands of dollars for each approval, is in the testing, especially the controlled engine tests needed to prove compliance. If you run and pass all of the required tests, the cost of actual certification is very small.

Tom NJ

 

[ltslimjim]

@buster, yeah, but isn't that their entire 'sulfurized esters' (is that their Synerlec?) add pack they are all about which(at least before their API conforming oils) = the head & shoulders test that Amsoil tried to use jab at RP regarding their use of the test, to point out it's relevance? Yeah, small company vs small company stuff. lol

All of that stuff, marketing...yeah, a company will take some steps to make their product look better. Including 'essentially' non-conclusive tests; aside from perhaps this test means little in a daily driver; etc.

However, if their product was garbage I could call that deceitful or deceptive. At least, it is 'somewhat' misleading.

I've wondered if the upper limit for calcium has kept Amsoil's SS oils from the API approval; while performance alone may not be an issue, could a particular 'min' or 'max' be simply irrelevant in actual performance?

RP has made it on technically 'excessive' sulfur content.

 

[nepadriver]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Just a guess here but...How much do certs cost? Where does that money end up? For example, another industry, Microsoft didn't want to add an external Blu Ray drive to the Xbox 360 , even after HD DVD failed, simply because Sony sits on the board of Blu Ray Disc Association. And the fees they would pay indirectly goto Sony in some small way or be perceived as a corporate failure on their part for choosing HD DVD originally.


To obtain an approval or certification, the oil company needs to conduct all of the tests required under the specification, either through the OEM or at an independent laboratory. The cost, which is usually hundreds of thousands of dollars for each approval, is in the testing, especially the controlled engine tests needed to prove compliance. If you run and pass all of the required tests, the cost of actual certification is very small.

Tom NJ


Interesting, and thanks for the reply.

Well, with that, couldn't it be safely assumed a small company doesn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around year after year to get ever changing certs? We know large multinational corporations play ball with each other (car company and oil company) , this is one of the main problems with our crony capitalist economy, the small guys can't spend the same on politicians and "institutes" and certifications etc, so why do we even question companies like Amsoil when we can pay for our own lab tests and see the results (i.e. UOAs) ?

I've seen enough UOAs to know that its a good oil, I don't use it, but I just don't care how many politicians large multinational corporations bought and paid for to create some "institute" or government standard that only they can afford to get each year. Seems hilarious that anyone would care honestly. Once you know the game they play, who gives a [censored]?

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
I've wondered if the upper limit for calcium has kept Amsoil's SS oils from the API approval; while performance alone may not be an issue, could a particular 'min' or 'max' be simply irrelevant in actual performance?


The specifications for API SN and GF-5 approval do not restrict calcium. The only limits on elemental content are on phosphorus and sulfur. Phosphorus has a minimum to protect older flat tappet engines, and a maximum to protect the catalytic converter. Sulfur has a maximum to again protect the catalytic converter.

The full GF-5 specification can be seen here.

Tom NJ

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Just a guess here but...How much do certs cost? Where does that money end up? For example, another industry, Microsoft didn't want to add an external Blu Ray drive to the Xbox 360 , even after HD DVD failed, simply because Sony sits on the board of Blu Ray Disc Association. And the fees they would pay indirectly goto Sony in some small way or be perceived as a corporate failure on their part for choosing HD DVD originally.


To obtain an approval or certification, the oil company needs to conduct all of the tests required under the specification, either through the OEM or at an independent laboratory. The cost, which is usually hundreds of thousands of dollars for each approval, is in the testing, especially the controlled engine tests needed to prove compliance. If you run and pass all of the required tests, the cost of actual certification is very small.

Tom NJ


Interesting, and thanks for the reply.

Well, with that, couldn't it be safely assumed a small company doesn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around year after year to get ever changing certs? We know large multinational corporations play ball with each other (car company and oil company) , this is one of the main problems with our crony capitalist economy, the small guys can't spend the same on politicians and "institutes" and certifications etc, so why do we even question companies like Amsoil when we can pay for our own lab tests and see the results (i.e. UOAs) ?

I've seen enough UOAs to know that its a good oil, I don't use it, but I just don't care how many politicians large multinational corporations bought and paid for to create some "institute" or government standard that only they can afford to get each year. Seems hilarious that anyone would care honestly. Once you know the game they play, who gives a [censored]?



....+1

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: nepadriver
Just a guess here but...How much do certs cost? Where does that money end up? For example, another industry, Microsoft didn't want to add an external Blu Ray drive to the Xbox 360 , even after HD DVD failed, simply because Sony sits on the board of Blu Ray Disc Association. And the fees they would pay indirectly goto Sony in some small way or be perceived as a corporate failure on their part for choosing HD DVD originally.


To obtain an approval or certification, the oil company needs to conduct all of the tests required under the specification, either through the OEM or at an independent laboratory. The cost, which is usually hundreds of thousands of dollars for each approval, is in the testing, especially the controlled engine tests needed to prove compliance. If you run and pass all of the required tests, the cost of actual certification is very small.

Tom NJ


Interesting, and thanks for the reply.

Well, with that, couldn't it be safely assumed a small company doesn't have hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around year after year to get ever changing certs? We know large multinational corporations play ball with each other (car company and oil company) , this is one of the main problems with our crony capitalist economy, the small guys can't spend the same on politicians and "institutes" and certifications etc, so why do we even question companies like Amsoil when we can pay for our own lab tests and see the results (i.e. UOAs) ?

I've seen enough UOAs to know that its a good oil, I don't use it, but I just don't care how many politicians large multinational corporations bought and paid for to create some "institute" or government standard that only they can afford to get each year. Seems hilarious that anyone would care honestly. Once you know the game they play, who gives a [censored]?