Amsoil AFL for MB 229.5 or 229.51?

[bimmerdriver]

I recently bought a 2002 ML320 (68,000 kms) and I've been looking into the MB specifications for lubricants. Everything I've read indicates that MB says all vehicles with gasoline engines (with the exception of the M156) should be using oil compliant with sheet 229.5 and not sheet 229.51.

I asked Amsoil about this and they said MB recently changed the recommendation to state that all engines since 1998 can use either 229.5 or 229.51 oil and therefore AFL is the correct oil for my ML320. I have yet to find any MB publication that confirms what Amsoil said.

I'm interested in hearing people's views about this.

 

[nfs480]

Have you tried contacting Mercedes with this question?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver

I asked Amsoil about this and they said MB recently changed the recommendation to state that all engines since 1998 can use either 229.5 or 229.51 oil and therefore AFL is the correct oil for my ML320.

First time I hear of this. 229.51 is a diesel spec.

What is the TBN of Amsoil AFL?

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: nfs480
Have you tried contacting Mercedes with this question?
Yes, not surpisingly, they said to only use OEM lubricants.

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver

I asked Amsoil about this and they said MB recently changed the recommendation to state that all engines since 1998 can use either 229.5 or 229.51 oil and therefore AFL is the correct oil for my ML320.

First time I hear of this. 229.51 is a diesel spec.

What is the TBN of Amsoil AFL?
To the first comment, according to Amsoil, AFL complies with 229.51, but not to 229.5. In spite of that, AFL is not listed with the diesel lubricants.

To the second comment, according to Amsoil, the TBN is 8.

 

[montero1]

Just to give you an idea on how this oil holds up, here's an analysis I had from a couple years ago for my SLK 320. Pretty good for an oil that has a TBN of 8 when new. I suppose the large sump helped.




Blackstone Labs


For an oil run nearly 16,000 miles wear looks great! Universal averages for the 3.2L are based on
an oil run of just 8,000 miles. We found a trace of fuel in the sample, which caused the low viscosity but
other than that everything looks good. Neither the fuel nor the low vis is a problem. The TBN read 1.8 so
you had some, but not much, active additive remaining. We consider 1.0 too low for extended use. Feel
free to run the next oil 17,000 miles. Check back for another look when you have the oil changed. You
may be able to go longer yet.


Miles on unit-105,700
Miles on oil -15,700
01 Mercedes SLK 320
Make-up oil -1 qt
Capacity - 8.5 qt
Amsoil 5w-40 European Formula
Sample Date 6-02-08


ALUMINUM-7
CHROMIUM-0
IRON-27
COPPER-4
LEAD-2
TIN-0
MANGANESE-1
MOLYBDENUM-7
NICKEL-1
SILVER-0
TITANIUM-0
POTASSIUM-1
BORON-45
SILICON-9
SODIUM-17
CALCIUM-1328
MAGNESIUM-128
PHOSPHORUS-754
ZINC-963
BARIUM-0




cSt Viscosity @ 100°C---61.1
SUS Viscosity @ 210°F----10.53
Flashpoint in °F---375
Fuel %---TR
Antifreeze %---0.0
Water %---0.0
Insolubles %---0.3
TBN----1.8
TAN
ISO Code

 

[bimmerdriver]

I took another look in WIS (MB service manual) and found nothing to indicate that MB changed the recommendation for 229.51 oil on gasoline engines (i.e., it is not recommended).

It will be interesting to see what the specs are for Amsoil's new European oil. I noticed that Motul has different oils for 229.31/229.51 which are both rated for diesel particulate filters and also approved by VW and Porsche.

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: montero1
Just to give you an idea on how this oil holds up, here's an analysis I had from a couple years ago for my SLK 320. Pretty good for an oil that has a TBN of 8 when new. I suppose the large sump helped.
Looks pretty good. I had some AFL and the ML was due for a change so I put it in.

 

[buster]

Isn't M1 0w-40 factory fill?

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: buster
Isn't M1 0w-40 factory fill?

Not sure about the regular MB vehicles, but the AMG vehicles for sure have Mobil as the factory fill and I believe it is Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40. However, back in 2002 when my ML was made, I doubt that type of oil was available.

Currently, this is the factory recommendation for gasoline engines up to 2004. IIRC, vehicles from 2005 and newer use the 229.5 oils from the same list.

2 Feb, 2010 Mercedes-Benz Approved Engine Oils

Mercedes-Benz oil specification sheet 229.3 / 229.5

Mercedes-Benz recommends only the use of Mercedes-Benz approved synthetic motor oil for all vehicles equipped with the Flexible Service System (1998 & newer). Below is a List of Mercedes Approved Synthetic Engine Oil (1998 – 2004 Models):

Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.5
Castrol Syntec European Formula 0W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.5
Pennzoil European Formula Ultra 5W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.5
Quaker State European Formula Ultra 5W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.5
ELF Excellium 229.5 5W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.5
Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.5
Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
ELF Excellium LDX 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
ELF Excellium LDX 0W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.3
Quaker State Full Synthetic European Formula 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Pennzoil Synthetic European Formula 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
76 Pure Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Kendall GT-1 Full Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Motul 8100 E-Tech 0W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Motul 8100 X-Cess 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-30* | MB Sheet: 229.3
Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 | MB Sheet: 229.3
Valvoline SynPower MXL 0W-30*| MB Sheet: 229.3

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: buster
Isn't M1 0w-40 factory fill?

Not sure about the regular MB vehicles, but the AMG vehicles for sure have Mobil as the factory fill and I believe it is Mobil 1 SuperSyn European Car Formula 0W-40. However, back in 2002 when my ML was made, I doubt that type of oil was available.

Currently, this is the factory recommendation for gasoline engines up to 2004. IIRC, vehicles from 2005 and newer use the 229.5 oils from the same list.

2 Feb, 2010 Mercedes-Benz Approved Engine Oils

Mercedes-Benz oil specification sheet 229.3 / 229.5

Mercedes-Benz recommends only the use of Mercedes-Benz approved synthetic motor oil for all vehicles equipped with the Flexible Service System (1998 & newer). Below is a List of Mercedes Approved Synthetic Engine Oil (1998 – 2004 Models):

...

I looked at the original reference and it is somewhat unclear to which engines it applies. It turns out that the list is for all engines, but the entries with * are not approved for AMG engines. Here is a link to the original reference.

Unless I understand the way MB has written their approvals, AFL only meets the specifications for MB diesel engines, not gasoline engines. I would have thought that since there are so many more gasoline engines (at least in North America), Amsoil would be more concerned with the 229.5 specification. I wonder if they thought that 229.51 includes 229.5.

 

[Trav]

I just looked at Shell.de and see they also recommend a diesel 5w-30 also for this gas engine.This TDS for this oil has 229.51 specs.

http://www.shell.de/home/page/deu/produc.../app_index.html

It recommends Shell Helix HX7 5W-40 (c, g, h)
When you look at c,g,h you see..

MERCEDES-BENZ
Modell ML320 (M112) (163 Series - M Class)
Motor B
Jahr 1998-2005
Anwendung Schmierstoff Kapazität (l)
Motor (B) Empfehlung Shell Helix HX7 5W-40 (c, g, h) 8.0
Alternative Shell Helix HX6 10W-40
Tankstellen Sorte Shell Helix HX7 10W-40
Schaltgetriebe -
Automatisches Getriebe SHELL ATF 3403-M115 (b) 8.0
Differential Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung (a, d) 1.7
Kühlmittel (50%) Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung 11.0 / 11.5 (e)
Brems- und Kupplungsflüssigkeit Bitte Originalersatzteil verwenden
Vorderachsenantriebe (je) Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung 1.2
Vorderradlagerschmierfett Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung
Allzweckschmierfett SHELL RETINAX EPL2 (nur in D und A)
Pegelregler, hydropneumatische Aufhängung (wenn vorhanden) Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung
Mechanische Lenkung (wenn verwendet) SHELL SPIRAX MB 90 (f)
Servolenkung SHELL DONAX TA
Transfergetriebe SHELL ATF 3403-M115 1.5
Hinweise verbergen Ölwechselabstände

Hinweise Schmiermittel/Kapazität
a. Selbstsperrdifferential oder automatisch sperrendes Differential (ASD): frühe Modelle; Bitte Originalersatzteil verwenden; Modelle mit ASD oder späteres ASD; Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung 85W-90
b. M-B Automatikgetriebe ohne gesteuerte Sperrkupplung, SHELL DONAX TZ
c. Ausschließlicher Gebrauch von Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung für neue, wiederaufbereitete und reparierte Motoren bis zum ersten Ölwechsel (außer M 102 16V Motoren)
d. Ausschließlicher Gebrauch von Bitte entnehmen Sie die Information aus der Bedienungsanleitung für neue, wiederaufbereitete und reparierte Hinterachsen bis zum ersten Ölwechsel
e. Modelle mit Klimaanlage: Zusatz von 0.5 ltr / 1 ltr Kühlmittel
f. Mechanische Lenkung: SHELL SPIRAX MB 90, außer Typ L 075 Z: SHELL DONAX TA
g. Ebenfalls empfohlen, SHELL HELIX ULTRA EXTRA 5W-30 / Shell Helix Diesel Ultra AB-L 5W-30
h. Alternative Empfehlungen: -25°C bis >30°C, 0W-30; -25°C bis >30°C, 5W-30; -25°C bis >30°C, 5W-40; -25°C bis >30°C, 5W-50; -20°C bis >30°C, 10W-30; -20°C bis >30°C, 10W-40; -20°C bis >30°C, 10W-50; -15°C bis >50°C, 15W-40; -15°C bis >50°C, 15W-50
Allgemeine Hinweise



Ebenfalls empfohlen, SHELL HELIX ULTRA EXTRA 5W-30 / Shell Helix Diesel Ultra AB-L 5W-30

Here is the TDS
http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_Local_TDS_Germany_Shell_Helix_Diesel_Ultra_AB-L_5W-30.pdf

It seems Amsoil is correct in this case.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
I recently bought a 2002 ML320 (68,000 kms) and I've been looking into the MB specifications for lubricants. Everything I've read indicates that MB says all vehicles with gasoline engines (with the exception of the M156) should be using oil compliant with sheet 229.5 and not sheet 229.51.

I asked Amsoil about this and they said MB recently changed the recommendation to state that all engines since 1998 can use either 229.5 or 229.51 oil and therefore AFL is the correct oil for my ML320. I have yet to find any MB publication that confirms what Amsoil said.

I'm interested in hearing people's views about this.


Which Tech Service guy told you? AFL is a low sulphated/low phosphorus - low ash oil and meets the general requirements of 229.51 (Low SPAsh multigrade service engine oils (Specification 229.51)). I see no reason why this oil wouldn't work quite well in most modern gasoline engines in NA requiring 5W-40. It's certainly as hearty as any SM oil.

Amsoil makes no written claim to meeting 229.5....I'd love to see this in writing.

 

[bimmerdriver]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
I recently bought a 2002 ML320 (68,000 kms) and I've been looking into the MB specifications for lubricants. Everything I've read indicates that MB says all vehicles with gasoline engines (with the exception of the M156) should be using oil compliant with sheet 229.5 and not sheet 229.51.

I asked Amsoil about this and they said MB recently changed the recommendation to state that all engines since 1998 can use either 229.5 or 229.51 oil and therefore AFL is the correct oil for my ML320. I have yet to find any MB publication that confirms what Amsoil said.

I'm interested in hearing people's views about this.


Which Tech Service guy told you? AFL is a low sulphated/low phosphorus - low ash oil and meets the general requirements of 229.51 (Low SPAsh multigrade service engine oils (Specification 229.51)). I see no reason why this oil wouldn't work quite well in most modern gasoline engines in NA requiring 5W-40. It's certainly as hearty as any SM oil.

Amsoil makes no written claim to meeting 229.5....I'd love to see this in writing.
Pablo, Thanks for your reply. Maybe what I wrote above isn't clear so I'll re-state it.

I'm aware that the Amsoil website claims that AFL complies with 229.31 and 229.51, but makes no claim that it complies with 229.3 or 229.5. If Amsoil makes those claims, I have no reason not to acccept them.

Everything I have read from MB says that 229.31 and 229.51 compatible oils are only approved for their diesel engines, and not for their gasoline engines. I asked Amsoil Technical Support if AFL was also compatible with 229.3 or 229.5 because according to MB, that is the type of oil that is required for MB gasoline engines. The response was that my info was incorrect and MB does approve 229.31 or 229.51 in gasoline engines. I have yet to find any MB source that supports that claim. Possibly someone here knows about this.

Some oil manufacturers have different oils for 229.5, 229.5 and 229.31 and 229.51 (e.g., Motul). Others have one oil that meets both standards (e.g., Valvoline). I wasn't clear whether AFL might be the same as Valvoline, which is why I originally contacted Amsoil Technical Support.

I don't know enough about oils in general or the MB standards in specific to know whether AFL is advised for my MB or not, which is why I'm asking the question here.

The email exchange was with a named individual and I don't have his permission to post his words on this website so I will forward it to you offline.

 

[typ901]

Save yourself the frustration and use Castrol 0w-30 or M1 0w-40, or a similar 229.5 as you application does not require the .51. I run Castrol in my '01 E320 and it works well. You can even use a 229.3 oil per the M-B FSS for vehicles from 1998-2004 model year. Also per the chart, the .51 is for Diesel Only.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Call Mercedes Benz (dealership) and ask for the oil specification for your vehicle. 229.5 and 229.51 are NOT the same. .51 is a Low-SAPS formulation whereas .5 is NOT. I have yet to hear where MB in North America is pouring Low-SAPS oils in their gasoline powered vehicles. Maybe it's a Canada thing?