Ammonia as engine fuel, close to hydrogen you get

[sdowney717]

NH3
The stuff they use in fertilizer can burn in an ICE.
Some comparisons showing feasibility.
http://nh3fuelassociation.org/comparisons/

Sure it is a dangerous chemical, so is gasoline.
I think it is better than propane as far as safety.

 

[SteveSRT8]

you're going to need a BIG fuel tank, not very much energy per gallon.

What are the byproducts of use in an ICE?

 

[sdowney717]

Perhaps you can keep the gasoline system intact and offer flex fuel with NH3 as the alternative fuel.
Make it easy to fill up and price it cheaper than gasoline and the market will naturally gravitate towards this.

I think we need real competition with oil to take prices for oil lower. 70% of oil is refined into transportation fuels.
If you introduce a real viable competitor, the tax that high oil prices hit our economy with will be considerably less.

Quote:
Cost effective NH3 has historically been priced competitively with gasoline and petroleum on an energy content (i.e., $/MM BTU basis). NH3 is currently produced from natural gas and coal. Current (April 2010) U.S. prices for coal, natural gas and gasoline are $1.20, $3.97 and $20.00 per million BTU respectively. Since NH3 is currently made from coal and natural gas, both of which are substantially lower in cost than gasoline, NH3 will generally be cost competitive with gasoline as long as the historical relative cost difference between coal, natural gas and gasoline remain.

 

[sdowney717]

Less than gasoline.
Range is an issue with electric being the worst.
I wont mind filling up twice as often if it saves me money.

Quote:
Environmental Performance NH3 is environmentally friendly, producing zero carbon dioxide and low overall emissions. The only significant pollutant emitted by either hydrogen or NH3 is NOx. It is easy and cost effective to use a small amount of NH3 to react with NOx over a low-cost catalyst to produce environmentally benign N2 and H2O.

 

[sdowney717]

Something else is Ammonia will work with current technology of engines and fuel infrastructure.

Car makers wont have to get radical and can keep the same or very similar engine design.

And we know how to transport ammonia and store it safely. Been moving it in pipelines for decades. So the educational part of this is already in place.

 

[sdowney717]

Another set of comments on Ammonia fuel for engines.

http://www.voxsolaris.com/nh3driver.html

An older video of someone who did this on an Impala.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0hBAz6MxC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6HzP84KhoY&feature=related

 

[rshaw125]

Sounds interesting. Off topic some what but if Washington actually did something for once and made all domestically produced biodiesel tax free for the next 20 years? I would love one of the Citroen DS5 diesel electric hybrid cars getting 50 mpg+ on $3 a gallon domestic bio-diesel.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Sure it is a dangerous chemical, so is gasoline. I think it is better than propane as far as safety.


Propane is extremely safe. It behaves differently than ammonia, though, when it leaks. Propane tends to pool, and that can be a problem. Such problems tend to arise at filling or when some unqualified soul is playing with the plumbing.

However, with ammonia, there are issues, too. First off, just like with LPG, you can kiss self-serve stations goodbye. Secondly, have you ever handled anhydrous ammonia? It's a vile, vile compound. A major leak during filling would be a thoroughly unpleasant experience. If you want to see people scatter, don't use tear gas - use anhydrous ammonia.

 

[NateDN10]

I wonder how they determined the maximum "practicle" compression ratio.

 

[m37charlie]

It seems that with the glut of natural gas in North America the near and medium term future for alternative motor fuels is CNG and LPG.

Charlie

 

[sdowney717]

yes, it really stinks bad. Which is in a way good. Cause If you smell a little you will want to get away. It notifies you of its presence. They add mercaptan to NG otherwise it is odorless.

I wonder about self service, why cant you make a safe self serve ammonia system? It could be designed to make a positive tested seal using a quick leak down test for the connection. For example, the ammonia fill pump could pump air into the fill line. Once that passed, the car computer could be told to open the internal fill valve. And the pump will fill the tank.

For the disconnect, have the ammonia fill pump evacuate the fill line. Verify the lack of ammonia and then disconnect itself from the car.

 

[Burt]

Ammonia can be made out of "wind, solar, biomass, coal, nuclear, hydro, ocean thermal???"

Why would you convert natural gas into ammonia for use as a fuel? Btu/gal for compressed natural gas is the same as ammonia? When you make ammonia, you produce a lot of carbon dioxide as a by product.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: sdowney717

I think it is better than propane as far as safety.


Not in a million years is ammonia safer than propane.

Don't confuse the slightly whiffy benchtop cleaning product, or even the catch your throat Sweets gun solvent with compressed anhydrous ammonia.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
Less than gasoline.
Range is an issue with electric being the worst.
I wont mind filling up twice as often if it saves me money.

Quote:
Environmental Performance NH3 is environmentally friendly, producing zero carbon dioxide and low overall emissions. The only significant pollutant emitted by either hydrogen or NH3 is NOx. It is easy and cost effective to use a small amount of NH3 to react with NOx over a low-cost catalyst to produce environmentally benign N2 and H2O.


See, that's the bait and switch that these people always use (not you)...you make Ammonia from Natural Gas and Coal...and it emits no CO2 when burned.

Of course not, the CO2 was emitted when the "fuel" was produced out of Natural Gas CH4, or coal CnHn+x.

As to cost, I had dual fuel propane/petrol for a few years, and it was great, and cheap. Until the number of users, particularly of propane only vehicle hit a critical mass, and the price of propane rose to the energy equivalent value of petrol.

Alternatives will always end up being priced energy equivalent to petrol...that's why EVs etc. will drive up home electricity prices.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Garak
However, with ammonia, there are issues, too. First off, just like with LPG, you can kiss self-serve stations goodbye. Secondly, have you ever handled anhydrous ammonia? It's a vile, vile compound. A major leak during filling would be a thoroughly unpleasant experience. If you want to see people scatter, don't use tear gas - use anhydrous ammonia.


All the LPG systems down here are self serve. Screw the "nozzle" onto the fill point, click the handle, the system checks that a seal is formed, and allows the tank to be filled. Float in tank closes line, pump feels pressure and shuts off delivery.

Release handle, and the little bit of propane between the nozzle and seal is vented just above your feet.

I can't see it being adapted to Ammonia 'though.

Would need a liquid fill and vapor return system, and then bubble the hose residual through water before release.

An accident with propane isn't nice, Ammonia is terrifying.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
yes, it really stinks bad. Which is in a way good. Cause If you smell a little you will want to get away.


If you smell a lot you won't get very far, nor will your neighbourhood.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
yes, it really stinks bad. Which is in a way good. Cause If you smell a little you will want to get away. It notifies you of its presence. They add mercaptan to NG otherwise it is odorless.


As Shannow stated, it's not simply a "bad smell." You breath in even a small amount of anhydrous ammonia, it'll knock you on your behind.

Up here, there are a lot of people using it as fertilizer, of course. There are regulations with respect to how you face with respect to the wind when filling up. The filling facilities are required to have a windsock.

Originally Posted By: sdowney717
I wonder about self service, why cant you make a safe self serve ammonia system?


I suppose it could work, but one would want to avoid needless complexity. In response to Shannow's comments about self-serve propane, I was oversimplifying. Self serve propane does exist, and our filling system is similar to what they have. Up here, though, you have to be certified to do it. And I agree that it wouldn't be easily adaptable to ammonia, given the venting system.

Suppliers obviously fill their mobile anhydrous ammonia tanks somehow. That doesn't mean it's easy or doesn't require some training. Anhydrous ammonia is of far greater concern with respect to dangerous goods regulations than is propane. The proponents of anhydrous ammonia as a fuel seem to gloss over this.

 

[Burt]

ammonia is an ingredient in making methamphetamine.

 

[Garak]

That can't help with there being all kinds of rules about precursors.

 

[sdowney717]

Ammonia can be made from seawater and electricity, so you dont need to get involved with Natural Gas.
It does look like NG is in extreme abundance with fracking. Fracking has become controversial with some areas banning it due to ground water pollution questions.
Mostly you run into a lot of opposition when talking about expanding energy production or changing the way energy is produced.
http://bangordailynews.com/2010/01/24/news/institute-plans-to-make-ammonia-for-fuel/

Quote:
A Rockland-based nonprofit involved in Maine’s efforts to develop deepwater wind turbines also sees “green energy” potential in a compound that many people likely associate with cleaning products.

The Ocean Energy Institute is developing plans for a pilot project in Maine that would take hydrogen from seawater and nitrogen from the air to form ammonia, which then can be used as a type of fuel similar to propane.

A common ingredient in the fertilizer that supports modern agriculture, ammonia traditionally has been produced from natural gas, oil or other fossil fuels through an energy-intensive process.

But staff at the Ocean Energy Institute — a small think tank and venture capital fund formed in 2007 — believe they can create ammonia from desalinated seawater and air with zero carbon footprint. To power the conversion process, the institute hopes to use off-peak electricity from deepwater wind farms proposed for the Gulf of Maine.


The idea wont just go away even with all the negatives.
When you smell anhydrous ammonia, it is not instant or certain death.

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/chemicals/spills/ammoniaspills/identity.aspx
Quote:
Odor Threshold
Fortunately, ammonia has an odor threshold of about 20 ppm which is substantially below the IDLH (see below) so most people will seek relief well below that which would cause adverse health affects.

It is extremely quickly knocked down with plain water spray.