Amazing difference in oils in 05 Ford PSD

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Most of my customers HEUI trucks that are starting to show stiction issues typically we move them into a synthetic 5W40 to kick the can down the road for a while. It does help, but the injectors have a lifespan typically of around 150-180k or so, maybe more if it sees a lot of highway.

I see you are in Ocala, I know the guys at Williams Diesel well, I would recommend them if you need some help.


Good to know Jimmy, I drive past them every day on my way to work. I might have to stop in sometime and say hi. Do you know if they know the 6.0 fairly well?

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
Most of my customers HEUI trucks that are starting to show stiction issues typically we move them into a synthetic 5W40 to kick the can down the road for a while. It does help, but the injectors have a lifespan typically of around 150-180k or so, maybe more if it sees a lot of highway.

I see you are in Ocala, I know the guys at Williams Diesel well, I would recommend them if you need some help.


Good to know Jimmy, I drive past them every day on my way to work. I might have to stop in sometime and say hi. Do you know if they know the 6.0 fairly well?



Their speciality is newer Bosch common rail stuff but they have had their hands in HEUI trucks for a long time too, and International is still using HEUI in some of their newest trucks so we (the industry) need to stay on top of them. HEUI system and the 7.3/6.0 have been around so long now most guys have them pretty nailed down. We have been associates for many years and they have been very helpful with us setting up our own Bosch CR rebuilding program.

 

[roadrunner1]

I had two 6.0's and about 450,000 mi. under my belt driving/maintaining them. I am going to guess your HPOP fitting is leaking, the problem didn't show with 15w-40 but does with 10w-30 is a sure sign of this.
I read your FICM voltage is good, so the HPOP fitting is the next logical place to check.

I had run 10w-30 in my last 6.0 for the last 125,000 mi. I had it, I would still have the '07 if it wasn't for the rear fenders rotting out over the wheels, mechanically it was flawless throughout my ownership.

 

[dnewton3]

A few points for me to make:

1) there are several members here who've run 10w-30 HDEO conventional oil in their 6.0PSD and never had one problem
2) the HEUI system in the 6.0 will prefer a 30 grade. You either feed it one, or it will shear your 40 grade down to a 30 grade soon after the OCI anyway
3) the OPs experience is anecdotal at this point

To really know if you can fairly blame the 30 grade, you'd have to not alter the engine whatsoever, and then do repeated back-to-back testing. You have to turn the input variable (grade) on/off, and see if you can turn the output (perceived poor running) on/off. This typically needs to be done three times with affirmed effect to be considered plausible. So far, we have 1/6th of the experiment done; he's run the 30 grade the first time. You've so far not proven correlation. And without correlation, there can be no causation. I'm not saying he's wrong; I'm saying he's a far cry away from actually proving anything.

Generally, in colder weather, the thinner grades actually help the PSDs run well. I've seen them used in my neighbors 6.0L for several seasons with no ill effects, and we've ran 30 grade in my son's 7.3L PSD will no harm either. And as I said previously, there are some members here who've had great success in terms of both performance and wear control using dino 10w-30 HDEO.

I believe the experience is coincidental at this point.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by Dave1027
Why did you delete the EGR? I would think doing something like that would throw off the mixture or combustion temps.



Dave- it isn't the same as a gasoline engine, Diesels burn very dirty, sooty exhaust and regurgitating their own exhaust leads to more problems than good. Think of it as a smokers lungs lol....



EGR lowers NOX emissions. The only soot problems is that the EGR itself can soot up which IIRC is a common issue with the this engine family.

 

[bismic1]

Originally Posted by dnewton3
A few points for me to make:

1) there are several members here who've run 10w-30 HDEO conventional oil in their 6.0PSD and never had one problem
2) the HEUI system in the 6.0 will prefer a 30 grade. You either feed it one, or it will shear your 40 grade down to a 30 grade soon after the OCI anyway
3) the OPs experience is anecdotal at this point

To really know if you can fairly blame the 30 grade, you'd have to not alter the engine whatsoever, and then do repeated back-to-back testing. You have to turn the input variable (grade) on/off, and see if you can turn the output (perceived poor running) on/off. This typically needs to be done three times with affirmed effect to be considered plausible. So far, we have 1/6th of the experiment done; he's run the 30 grade the first time. You've so far not proven correlation. And without correlation, there can be no causation. I'm not saying he's wrong; I'm saying he's a far cry away from actually proving anything.

Generally, in colder weather, the thinner grades actually help the PSDs run well. I've seen them used in my neighbors 6.0L for several seasons with no ill effects, and we've ran 30 grade in my son's 7.3L PSD will no harm either. And as I said previously, there are some members here who've had great success in terms of both performance and wear control using dino 10w-30 HDEO.

I believe the experience is coincidental at this point.



I will say it again. This engine may run well on a 30wt. In fact I have no doubts that it does. To say it prefers it is an exaggeration. Lots of people have good service and low wear metals on 5W40 as well. I would venture a guess that there are a lot more good UOA reports on 5W40 oil than 10W30 oil. Does that mean the 5W40 is better? Of course not. There are just a lot more people using 5W40 oil than 10W30 oil.

I can send you tons of data showing that the 40 wt oils I have used do NOT rapidly shear to a 30 wt, They do so steadily and fairly slowly.

I can show you data that the 6.0L shears 10W30 towards a 20 wt in 7500 miles. Does that mean the 6.0L prefers a 20 wt? btw - this data (showing the 30 wt WILL shear) comes from the folks you are referencing as having good experience (posts here, on the Org, and other forums).

Shearing happens because of the mechanical energy imparted to the oil - primarily from the HPOP and the injectors. It will happen with any multi grade oil.

To summarize the data, Rotella 10W30 viscosity will drop into the mid 9's (cSt) at 7500 miles. John Deere+50 will be in the mid 10's (cSt) at 7500 miles. Remember 9.29 cSt and it is in the 20 wt range. 40 wt begins at 12.5.

Rotella 5W40 will still be at around 12 at 5000 miles. It will vary somewhat, but much of my data has Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 and Mobil 1 TDT 5W40 still at 12.5 cSt at 5000 miles and right around 12 at 7500 miles. Again - 40 wt begins at 12.5.

I have enough data for your 3x repetition to confirm the numbers.

I agree with the rest of what you are saying, but to exaggerate the 6.0L shearing of a 40 wt and to imply that a 30 wt doesn't shear is flat out wrong and this is the last place an internet myth on oil should be perpetuated. I will agree that a 30 wt will shear more slowly, but any oil with more VII's (eg 5W40) will most likely shear more rapidly than one with less (eg 10W30). I also agree that MANY people have had good success in a 6.0L with 10W30 oil.

So ............ add me to the list that thinks this is coincidental at this point.

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted by dnewton3
A few points for me to make:

1) there are several members here who've run 10w-30 HDEO conventional oil in their 6.0PSD and never had one problem
2) the HEUI system in the 6.0 will prefer a 30 grade. You either feed it one, or it will shear your 40 grade down to a 30 grade soon after the OCI anyway
3) the OPs experience is anecdotal at this point

To really know if you can fairly blame the 30 grade, you'd have to not alter the engine whatsoever, and then do repeated back-to-back testing. You have to turn the input variable (grade) on/off, and see if you can turn the output (perceived poor running) on/off. This typically needs to be done three times with affirmed effect to be considered plausible. So far, we have 1/6th of the experiment done; he's run the 30 grade the first time. You've so far not proven correlation. And without correlation, there can be no causation. I'm not saying he's wrong; I'm saying he's a far cry away from actually proving anything.

Generally, in colder weather, the thinner grades actually help the PSDs run well. I've seen them used in my neighbors 6.0L for several seasons with no ill effects, and we've ran 30 grade in my son's 7.3L PSD will no harm either. And as I said previously, there are some members here who've had great success in terms of both performance and wear control using dino 10w-30 HDEO.

I believe the experience is coincidental at this point.



DNewton- thanks for chiming in. I value your opinion as I do a few others on here. I did not mention in my OP that I have ran 10W30 in this truck before (always rotella) especially when I lived up north in the winters. The truck as always loved the 30WT oil, I only went back to the 15W40 when I moved to Florida and found that the 10W30 was harder to find.

The only variable that has changed this go-round is the use of MotorCraft brand oil. I had a bottle of HotShots Stiction eliminator on the shelf in the garage so I dumped that in last night as It may be purely coincidental at this point since I do have 131k miles on it now and the truck has been flawless. Just last year it pulled a our gooseneck trailer loaded with 3 fat mares and tons of other stuff 22 hours on our move from WV to Florida and averaged 15MPG! My wife easily outran me in the Uhaul with the new Ford V10.

 

[bbslider001]

FWIW, MoCo oil made my 2000 7.3 run like absolute chit...and it was obvious right away on start up. Another oil called "lube King did the same. So yes, I absolutely believe you, especially since oil affects how our injectors fire. This is different in other trucks, but in the PSD 7.3 or 6.0, it is crucial. I run Supertech 15w-40. Truck does beautifully on it.

 

[bismic1]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by dnewton3
A few points for me to make:

1) there are several members here who've run 10w-30 HDEO conventional oil in their 6.0PSD and never had one problem
2) the HEUI system in the 6.0 will prefer a 30 grade. You either feed it one, or it will shear your 40 grade down to a 30 grade soon after the OCI anyway
3) the OPs experience is anecdotal at this point

To really know if you can fairly blame the 30 grade, you'd have to not alter the engine whatsoever, and then do repeated back-to-back testing. You have to turn the input variable (grade) on/off, and see if you can turn the output (perceived poor running) on/off. This typically needs to be done three times with affirmed effect to be considered plausible. So far, we have 1/6th of the experiment done; he's run the 30 grade the first time. You've so far not proven correlation. And without correlation, there can be no causation. I'm not saying he's wrong; I'm saying he's a far cry away from actually proving anything.

Generally, in colder weather, the thinner grades actually help the PSDs run well. I've seen them used in my neighbors 6.0L for several seasons with no ill effects, and we've ran 30 grade in my son's 7.3L PSD will no harm either. And as I said previously, there are some members here who've had great success in terms of both performance and wear control using dino 10w-30 HDEO.

I believe the experience is coincidental at this point.



DNewton- thanks for chiming in. I value your opinion as I do a few others on here. I did not mention in my OP that I have ran 10W30 in this truck before (always rotella) especially when I lived up north in the winters. The truck as always loved the 30WT oil, I only went back to the 15W40 when I moved to Florida and found that the 10W30 was harder to find.

The only variable that has changed this go-round is the use of MotorCraft brand oil. I had a bottle of HotShots Stiction eliminator on the shelf in the garage so I dumped that in last night as It may be purely coincidental at this point since I do have 131k miles on it now and the truck has been flawless. Just last year it pulled a our gooseneck trailer loaded with 3 fat mares and tons of other stuff 22 hours on our move from WV to Florida and averaged 15MPG! My wife easily outran me in the Uhaul with the new Ford V10.




Do you have any wear metal data on 10W30 vs 5W40? What constitutes a truck "loving" or "preferring" an oil?

I do see the technical reason for slightly better fuel economy, but along the same lines a less viscous oil will be more prone to leakage in the high pressure oil system. As far as wear metals, I have seen no indication that there is a statistically valid difference ......... Afterall, if a 6.0L will shear a 40wt to the high end of a 30 wt in 5k miles, so why not keep driving it as a 30 wt for 5k more miles - since a 6.0L is believed to prefer it? Most of the data out there shows that the TBN and TAN are still plenty good.

I have data showing that Rotella oils (whether a 10W30 or a 5W40) will shear a little faster than other brands. That said, I have no reason to prefer one vs another (and I don't). It is just that the data needs to be used instead of blanket statements ... especially by folks that (and rightfully so) are always reminding us to draw conclusions on data and not on gut feel. That said, I too have valued DNewton's posts and opinions., but the 6.0L seems to generate and perpetuate a lot of strong "gut feel" opinions.

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted by bbslider001
FWIW, MoCo oil made my 2000 7.3 run like absolute chit...and it was obvious right away on start up. Another oil called "lube King did the same. So yes, I absolutely believe you, especially since oil affects how our injectors fire. This is different in other trucks, but in the PSD 7.3 or 6.0, it is crucial. I run Supertech 15w-40. Truck does beautifully on it.



Good to know! At least I know I'm not the only one thinking this is possible! LOL for a minute I started thinking I am losing it for thinking an oil brand change could do this

 

[wtd]

My fiancee ran Motorcraft 10W-30 diesel oil in her 2003 Superduty with the 6.0 for the entire time she owned it. She bought it new in 2003 and sold it in 2017 with 96,000 miles on it.

It always ran fine but was starting to not start as well as it used to and would blow a lot of black smoke on startup. Truck never used any oil between the 5,000 mile oil changes.

This truck never had any of the typical 6.0 issues that many people experienced.

 

[k9jadon]

I also have an '05 6 liter(owned since new). My experience was this: for a little over 115000 miles it ran fine, but seemingly overnight I started to have an injector problem. I say seemingly because we had gone camping for the weekend and the truck pulled our trailer fine to the campground and from the campground. But after the truck was turned off for a couple of hours when I tried to pull the trailer home I had serious trouble starting it, then as I was trying to get home I couldn't get the truck up to freeway speed. My friend has one of those snap-on scanners and he scanned the computer and it came up with one of the injectors going bad. I do not remember the technical code. But the point is, that it ran well, had a couple(literally a couple) of hard starts when cold previously, but then just went side ways in the matter of a day. Like in the morning the truck pulled my trailer fine then in the afternoon of the same day in ran like garbage. Now as I understand it, the injector has a sort of electric motor in the injector to actuate the spool valve. My experience with such electronics is that they can and do just give up the ghost. Just my opinion though.

 

[k9jadon]

Originally Posted by k9jadon
Now as I understand it, the injector has a sort of electric motor in the injector to actuate the spool valve. My experience with such electronics is that they can and do just give up the ghost. Just my opinion though.


Often with no warning what so ever.

 

[Wizz]

I had stiction develop at 160K miles, it went away once oil temps hit 90°...turned out to be my FICM slowly going bad (common on these trucks). Installed a new FICM from FICMRepair.com and it runs perfect again. Truck is a '06 F250 bone stock and has 172K trouble free miles...extremely reliable truck if you keep it bone stock.