Alignment advice needed. (pic)

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Back story, 2001 Civic ~220k miles. Back in December I had the lower control arm compliance bushings replaced. An alignment was done as part of the service. At the time tires still wearing evenly, bushings were replaced because they were obviously worn out on inspection and causing an occasion clanking noise. But otherwise steering was fine and no significant uneven tire wear observed and tires regularly rotated.

Fast forward to yesterday while changing oil ~6k miles later. Looking at tires noticed both front tires showing significant wear on inner part of tire. The tires were rotated just prior to alignment and no unusual/uneven inner wear noted. The left side is slightly worse than the right side but both showing wear. And rear tires that were rotated from the front just before alignment aren't showing excessive inner wear after 6k miles.

Talked to place bushings were done, he said alignment wouldn't have compensated for previous wear pattern. Didn't argue, but I know there was no significant wear at that point. So let discussion go with him for now.

Today went to local Honda dealer to order a part and ask about their ~$70 alignment and explained alignment at time of bushings. Serv writer said to bring it in and do a quick align check. The printout showed all good except camber slightly out of spec on right side only, and not an adjustable without a nut. Left side in spec. The results made no sense to me, so I have little confidence in that quick check reliability in this case.

My question is what would be the best course to follow now? Should I just go back to the guy who did the alignment and give him another shot, paying for another alignment pointing out the wear. Let the dealer try it even though their fancy quick check didn't seem accurate to me? And based on the service writers comments after the quick check, sounded like they wanted no part of it.

Lastly looking at the pic, what would be the most likely angle out of spec at this point? This is the left side tire, the side showing the most inner wear. TIA

 
I'd say a negative camber on the (your) left side. Maybe is a question of perspective, since your "left" side isn't that of the driver seated looking foward. That should be the Datum point.
 
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Just a thought.
I have seen many cars with a few miles on them develop negative camber on the rear wheels. Perhaps caused by spring sag and worn bushings/joints. If these front tires came from the rear and they had been there a long time, this may have gone unnoticed at the time of rotation.
 
Most likely, toe needs to be adjusted since both are wearing.

I check mine (Tacoma and 4runner) with a tape measure but, that might be tough to do on a civic. Stretch a tape measure between the tire sidewalls fore and aft of the axle and try to make the measurements equal by adjusting the tie rod ends..
 
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In my entire life i've only gotten a service alignment one time on wifes G8 all 4 wheels after suspension upgrade. It is amazing what you can do with a stick and some string, protractor,carpenters square, tape measure and basic math.

Pull into a flat driveway with steering perfectly straight and stop.

A large square placed on the front or back outside of the tire with the elbow touching the ground will show you if the wheels are tilted in/out. You'll see if they aren't the same and can put the protractor on there to read the angle.

Use a stick ~3 ft long with string and plumb bobs or nails hanging wown on the ends and place it half way up the tire with the bobs almost touching the ground. Mark the ground with chalk or sharpie where the bobs are on all wheels then move the car. Connect the dots for each wheel to better visualize and eyball the angles. get down low to the ground and sight down one of the front wheel lines looking toward the back. Are the front wheels parallel? towed out? or in? you can see it or measure between the ends of the lines and do some more math to get the degrees for you. then adjust tie rods as necessary.

I can drag my hand back and forth across a tires tread and feel the edges of the tread and tell you if it is towed in or out by how sharp the edges are.

This may seem like a lot of work but only needs doing once per vehicle. I have over 50k on my current Michelin's and they are wearing perfectly evenly and another 20K to go at least. I'm sure some shop owner with a $50K laser machine may flame me but IDC my system works :)
 
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I think you'd notice negative camber that's severe enough to cause this type of wear. I don't believe that this is due to camber. Or...camber is not the primary factor here.

I think these tires are toed out severely. Toe is odd -- in a narrow range, you can make small adjustments and really change how the car drives. But go beyond that range, and it's just so far out that it's pushing or dragging the tires down the road and small adjustments will all feel the same.

I do similar to Kawiguy454 in my home alignments. Sayjac, in your case, I'd find a way to measure the toe yourself on the front of the car. I use a long 2x4 with inch marks that I've noted on it. With it and a laser level on a straight edge, I can measure (and set) toe within reason.
 
Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
In my entire life i've only gotten a service alignment one time on wifes G8 all 4 wheels after suspension upgrade. It is amazing what you can do with a stick and some string, protractor,carpenters square, tape measure and basic math.

Pull into a flat driveway with steering perfectly straight and stop.

A large square placed on the front or back outside of the tire with the elbow touching the ground will show you if the wheels are tilted in/out. You'll see if they aren't the same and can put the protractor on there to read the angle.

Use a stick ~3 ft long with string and plumb bobs or nails hanging wown on the ends and place it half way up the tire with the bobs almost touching the ground. Mark the ground with chalk or sharpie where the bobs are on all wheels then move the car. Connect the dots for each wheel to better visualize and eyball the angles. get down low to the ground and sight down one of the front wheel lines looking toward the back. Are the front wheels parallel? towed out? or in? you can see it or measure between the ends of the lines and do some more math to get the degrees for you. then adjust tie rods as necessary.

I can drag my hand back and forth across a tires tread and feel the edges of the tread and tell you if it is towed in or out by how sharp the edges are.

This may seem like a lot of work but only needs doing once per vehicle. I have over 50k on my current Michelin's and they are wearing perfectly evenly and another 20K to go at least. I'm sure some shop owner with a $50K laser machine may flame me but IDC my system works :)



Yea....no.
 
If both tires are wearing the same, you likely have too much toe out...

The problem with most alignment specs is that the acceptable range is too wide. So you get the alignment checked and it shows as within range, but it's not really very close to perfect, and will wear tires unevenly... but it is not enough to really impact the road feel.

Usually zero toe is optimum on a street driven car... if you ask for zero toe, the tech will grumble a bit, but will usually do it for you. If you don't ask, he will put it on the rack, and if it shows green, he won't adjust anything...!
 
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0.0 toe while stationary on the rack does not produce 0.0 toe on the road; it spreads as you drive.

I should certainly expect the shop to grumble when someone comes in thinking that he knows more than the shop, Hunter, and the vehicle's manufacturer...
 
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
0.0 toe while stationary on the rack does not produce 0.0 toe on the road; it spreads as you drive.

I should certainly expect the shop to grumble when someone comes in thinking that he knows more than the shop, Hunter, and the vehicle's manufacturer...


Right...

In my experience, alignment techs are often ( not always...) the laziest slacker in the shop, and if they can avoid adjusting anything, they will....

Flat rate shops are a factor as well... especially at "lifetime alignment..." shops. Tech's don't get paid enough to fine tune to perfection.

And "... It spreads as you drive..." ? Actually, most front drive cars toe in a little under acceleration load ... rear drivers of old might have "spread..." a little, toeing out slightly under acceleration loads... but modern suspension designs have become much better at being compliant where needed, and rigid where required... toe angles don't move much, if at all, when driving a modern car. Worn or failed bushings, however, will allow excess movement.
 
Appreciate all the responses thus far, very helpful. I had given this some serious thought before posting but wanted some opinions here before giving them.

My first thought was not enough toe in the alignment, ie., negative toe/(toe out) as was mentioned above several times. Here's why I thought that, camber not a readily adjustable angle on this vehicle so most likely thing 'imo' was the toe was not set to spec. Really thought that was the only thing the 'tech' had touched. And he mention compensating for something with the alignment after a bushing change, but I didn't get exactly what he was saying and no need to press over the phone.

But, I wasn't rude over the phone to the tech that did the alignment, nor did I tell him his job. Just very confident I know how the tires were wearing pre-alignment as I regularly check them for wear and as noted regularly rotated. In fact after speaking with the owner of the indie Honda shop today, I would consider going back. He's a pretty straight guy and it's his son that does the alignments.

As for the diy toe adjustment suggestions, I'll take them under advisement. A bit physically challenged from recent surgery at the moment. Again, do appreciate the well considered answers of issue and the fix. If I lived a bit closer to Hokiefyd I'd let him take a look as he frequently posts of doing his own toe alignment adjustments.

I do have one comment about the Honda quick alignment check service I used. If my printout result listed in my first post are any indication of their general accuracy, I wouldn't give you two cents for them. Maybe just an aberration, but didn't seem accurate in my case.
 
If you drove it to me, I'd absolutely hook it up to my "alignment rack".

Really, with a bit of high school trig and reasonably straight measuring devices, you can get it dialed in very close. The downside of doing alignments at home is you have to be diligent on monitoring your work, and willing to adjust as needed. I rarely (never) get something perfect the first time. It takes a few times of pulling the car up on ramps and road testing to get it really dialed-in to how I want it.

But, on the flip side, it's rewarding and you gain quite a bit of knowledge of how your suspension system looks and works.
 
I had an "alignment... " done at a local tire chain on a Saturday. They asked if I could leave the car , as they were very busy that day. I said no problem, and got a ride home from my wife. Returned about 1/2 an hour before closing, and noticed my car had not moved. At about 15 minutes to close, a tech came out and drove the car onto the alignment rack. TEN MINUTES...later, he backed it out and parked it.

I asked the service writer how long an alignment usually takes, and he stated about 15 minutes to set everything up, and 1/2 an hour or so to make the various adjustments...

I paid, and drove the car... still pulled hard right. I went home and took a look under the car, and their was not a mark on any of the tie rods, which were 6 year old oem parts, with a layer of grime and rust...

I went back on Monday, and asked to speak to the owner, and described my experience. He agreed with my conclusion that the tech DID NOTHING AT ALL.

I demanded a full refund, and he refunded the full cost.

I took the car to another tire shop, and watched the tech do the alignment. He was meticulous in everything he did, showing me an obvious toe problem, and an inner tie rod that was so worn it allowed about a 1/2 inch + of wheel movement. He said he could not align the car properly because the tie rod allowed so much movement. He replaced both inner and outer tie rods, and then re-did the alignment.

Car drove perfectly after the minor repair and quality alignment...

Not all alignments are the same...
 
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...Not all alignments are the same...

Very true. And my concern now beside the fact that the front is obviously out of alignment ( most likely toe) is entering what I think of as the 'endless alignment zone'. That is going from one alignment to the next without really knowing if it's been done properly until the tires show wear (or don't) after some point in time. Luckily these tires are reaching the end of use period, but I will rotate immediately after next alignment. The rear's are good like the front's were pre-alignment. Yesterday's experience at the dealer quick check reinforced that endless alignment thought.

And this vehicle has never had an "alignment", except for once after a set of new tires (but no uneven wear) that was 'called' an alignment where it was put on the rack by a Honda dealer but was said 'in spec', then taken down and naturally charged full price. After that I said no more alignments unless some major tire wear showed. I'm at that point now, seemingly because of the previous alignment.

Still considering my options, but researching some other alignment places/shops is likely. And, hoping my judgement and choice is correct.
 
Just an update. So after some thought I decided to go back to the indie Honda shop this morning that did the bushings and alignment. Also had a back up plan, made an appt' for an alignment at a different Honda dealer for Saturday.

Pulled in and explained about tires being rotated just before the bushing replacement and align last December. We looked at rears first, and yes some wear in the inner portion especially left rear, but not like fronts. Then he checked all the suspension parts, they were still solid though one ball joint boot was worn.

After that brief discussion son put the car on the rack immediately, let me watch up close. And guess what, the right front did show the camber slightly out of spec on the negative side. So I eat some crow about the accuracy of the dealer align quick check. But working with his dad sitting in the car, he also noted the left rear needed a bit more tow so started there adding some tow. Then checked the fronts again, and the left front now had a more tow, but also in spec. Said at some point before buying new tires I could come and get a camber bolt installed. Also said that if I got new coil over struts that too could well bring it into spec because new springs would raise car too. Made sense.

After owner father sat in car and son got read out, then son sat in car and let is dad look the read out and talked to me about camber bolt. Then finished it up and backed out. I'm satisfied and would go back there again. Perhaps for the camber bolt installation or maybe struts, but latter less certain. I may have missed on some of the technical part of the alignment do here, but again I'm satisfied they made an honest attempt to satisfy me. Offered and was prepared to pay for the alignment, but he said no and it was good business. Thanked him and his son.

Then went to Disc Tire for rotation and balance, last one for these tires. Knew DT would want to try sell me on a new set as tires are 4-5/32, less in the inner tread. As I planned, told the counter guy checking the tires depth I was waiting for 4th of July promo sales. Still tried to tell me they were having some great promos now but told them I was looking specifically at RT43's, that quieted them as that is not a stock tire. RT43's will be one of a few tires I will look at. Did give me a price on the RT43's.

All in all, a satisfactory outcome.
 
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