Aircraft Collision at Haneda

[Astro14]

I'm not knowledgeable about these procedures but apparently the Airbus was cleared for landing. Which leaves an incursion by the coast guard plane very likely, or the ATC made a mistake?

I doubt ATC made the mistake. They told the CG plane to hold short of the runway.

The CG plane crossed the runway, and was struck by the landing JAL.

My gut - echoed above - and supported by Juan Brown’s video - is 100% on the CG airplane making a terrible mistake.

One common thing I see from military pilots who transition to airline, is the lack of experience with crowded, high tempo airports, like O’Hare, or Haneda. I suspect that lack of familiarity will prove to be a factor in this case.

 

[edyvw]

If this was a domestic carrier at a US airport, probably 1/3 of the passengers would‘ve been dead. They would’ve been grabbing their carry-ons and not listening to the flight attendants instructions.

Air France 358 accident from 2005 in Toronto would like a word.

 

[350Rocket]

The media outlets in the UK are calling it a miracle that all passengers on the A350 survived. Not one that I've read gives any due credit to the professionalism of the cabin crew who managed the evacuation. The fact that Japanese passengers are more naturally inclined to respect authority and do what they were told might have helped too. A lesson for us all in that situation.

The videos I watched raved about how great a job the cabin crew did. I think everyone aboard that plane was responsible for saving lives. Needless to say, very sad about the coastguard grew. But obviously this could have been much worse.

 

[350Rocket]

Air France 358 accident from 2005 in Toronto would like a word.

The one Asian guy interviewed went to Queens university, which is in the city I work out of.

 

[edyvw]

Evacuation time: 18 minutes!
Time before slides opened: 8 minutes.
Crew coordination: 3-8 minutes.

Pilots unaware of fire until informed by cabin crew.

 

[Dave Hess]

This crash reminds me of the USAir crash at LAX back in 1991.

Los Angeles runway disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

This crash reminds me of the USAir crash at LAX back in 1991.

Los Angeles runway disaster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Because of that accident , my airline requires us to query the tower ( ATC ) when still in position on the runway after 30 seconds waiting for take off clearance ( in case ATC forgets we are lined up still on the runway but not cleared take off yet ).

It’s very hard to see another aircraft waiting in position for take off on the runway when on final approach ( night ).

 

[supton]

In Juan's video, at 4:40 he plays a bit of ATC's instructions. Is it me or is hard to understand? I've only listened to a few youtube videos over the years with ATC talking, and I know there's a lingo, and with practice one hears better--but was that difficult to understand, by those who commonly talk to ATC? or is it just me?

Also, ATC uses different channels--is the landing A350 on a different channel than the departing dash 8, correct?

I realize the final report will explain all, but, presuming that the A350 more or less landed on the dash 8, what training scenario is most akin to this? What does the pilot resort to? It looked like the nose landing gear collapsed/tore away; is that something that is run in the simulator? I mean, a big bump out of the blue and everything goes to heck: one usually falls back to their training when things go sideways. Training for a failure of any given system is a given, I'm just wondering, is training for collapsed landing gear one of them.

The deployment of the slides: there's some checklist that the crew goes through, before executing (I'm assuming, having no background). Is looking to see if an engine is still turning one of those items?

 

[supton]

It’s very hard to see another aircraft waiting in position for take off on the runway when on final approach ( night ).

And I thought it could be confusing driving at night sometimes. Lots of lights, in and out. Couple of lights on one airplane, isn't that going to blend in with everything else?

 

[wpod]

And I thought it could be confusing driving at night sometimes. Lots of lights, in and out. Couple of lights on one airplane, isn't that going to blend in with everything else?
View attachment 196697

It is intense . I couldn't imagine the skill level .

 

[supton]

It is intense . I couldn't imagine the skill level .

Neither could I. I find it fascinating, but it's a bit much to take in, at a slow pace, at home. Real time, that has to be a skill well honed in order to have.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

And I thought it could be confusing driving at night sometimes. Lots of lights, in and out. Couple of lights on one airplane, isn't that going to blend in with everything else?
View attachment 196697

Yes.

"It’s very hard to see another aircraft waiting in position for take-off on the runway when on final approach ( night )."

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

In Juan's video, at 4:40 he plays a bit of ATC's instructions. Is it me or is hard to understand? I've only listened to a few youtube videos over the years with ATC talking, and I know there's a lingo, and with practice one hears better--but was that difficult to understand, by those who commonly talk to ATC? or is it just me?

Also, ATC uses different channels--is the landing A350 on a different channel than the departing dash 8, correct?

I realize the final report will explain all, but, presuming that the A350 more or less landed on the dash 8, what training scenario is most akin to this? What does the pilot resort to? It looked like the nose landing gear collapsed/tore away; is that something that is run in the simulator? I mean, a big bump out of the blue and everything goes to heck: one usually falls back to their training when things go sideways. Training for a failure of any given system is a given, I'm just wondering, is training for collapsed landing gear one of them.

The deployment of the slides: there's some checklist that the crew goes through, before executing (I'm assuming, having no background). Is looking to see if an engine is still turning one of those items?

It takes a while for new pilots to get used to listening to ATC ( or experienced pilots who have not flown in busy airspace which is usually very busy airports ), but you get used to it after a while. While English the the language of ATC, when English is not their first language, it makes it harder to follow what is going on. They only understand "ATC English" so it is more important to avoid radio slang and be very precise during communications with them.

Airport "Towers" ( ATC ) that control the take-off and landings, use the same frequency ( for the same runway ).

No, we don't train for unexpected landing gear collapses in the simulator ( we would know in advance if it looked like the gear might collapse after landing and prepare accordingly ).

If there is an emergency evacuation, pilots at my airline simply complete the "passenger evacuation checklist" and make a PA: "evacuate, evacuate", advise ATC, and leave the rest up to the trained Flight attendants in the back to decide which exists to use/avoid ( they are trained to assess outside conditions AS WELL as any passengers sitting in an emergency exit row who were briefed before take-off ).

If I ran the evacuation checklist and noticed one of the engines wasn't shutting down ( select engine master "off" but notice not spooling down ) , I would advise the flight attendants.

Edit: Forgot about your slide question. When the cabin crew finishes securing the cabin before we push off the gate ( "Cabin secure Captain, o.k for the door? ), the passenger boarding door is closed, all DOOR slides are armed during pushback ( 4 doors on the A320 plus 4, mid cabin, over wing exists that are always armed ) and left armed until the aircraft parks at the gate on arrival.

Slides automatically deploy once the doors are opened ( from the inside ).

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Juan Browne update.

Once again, very hard to see an aircraft lined up on the runway.

A contributing factor will be the NOTAM ( red hold short of runway lights ).

Mods: feel free to delete and post the link. I was having problems unlike in the past.

 

[Finklejag]

Air France 358 accident from 2005 in Toronto would like a word.

Is Air France an US domestic carrier and is Toronto in the US?

 

[edyvw]

Is Air France an US domestic carrier and is Toronto in the US?

Lol. I mean seriously? I flew numerous times with Air Canada or Air France to Toronto and than US. Half a plane is going to US.
In the end of the day, evacuation lasted 8min. According to your theory, Americans might be more disciplined.
Travel a bit.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Lol. I mean seriously? I flew numerous times with Air Canada or Air France to Toronto and than US. Half a plane is going to US.
In the end of the day, evacuation lasted 8min. According to your theory, Americans might be more disciplined.
Travel a bit.

Toronto, the 4th largest city in NA ( and busiest highway in NA….the 401 ).

Toronto Airport is not well liked by pilots, or passengers ( but that had zero to do with why AF went off the runway ).

I would have requested a longer runway given the weather they had to deal with.

Where is WA? West Africa?

 

[edyvw]

Toronto, the 4th largest city in NA ( and busiest highway in NA….the 401 ).

Toronto Airport is not well liked by pilots, or passengers ( but that had zero to do with why AF went off the runway ).

I would have requested a longer runway given the weather they had to deal with.

Where is WA? West Africa?

I understand that. My point was that culture didn’t have anything with evacuation time. In the end, flight attendants left some people behind that captain found, all evacuation lasted far longer than it should.
Can’t remember evacuation time of Asiana in SFO?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I understand that. My point was that culture didn’t have anything with evacuation time. In the end, flight attendants left some people behind that captain found, all evacuation lasted far longer than it should.
Can’t remember evacuation time of Asiana in SFO?

But AF culture had something to do with that, and other, incidents/accidents. They have had too many problems. It’s been written about by safety experts ( complacent ).

Letting an FO take the AP off, and disconnect the auto thrust in extreme weather they were facing was complacent. IIRC, the aircraft became slightly high as it approached the runway threshold.

AP on to minimums ( Airbus says 80 feet on Cat 1 ILS which is what they had ) , and keep the auto thrust on ( GS mini deals with wild winds ). Not a time to be hand flying and using manual thrust.

That decision ( I doubt the FO even briefed he would do that and no Captain should allow that given the weather, and go around possibility ) to take the AP and auto thrust should have been briefed ( when will disconnect AP and use of automation ) and discouraged if brought up.

Not to sound critical but that’s being complacent.

 

[350Rocket]

Toronto, the 4th largest city in NA ( and busiest highway in NA….the 401 ).

Toronto Airport is not well liked by pilots, or passengers ( but that had zero to do with why AF went off the runway ).

I would have requested a longer runway given the weather they had to deal with.

Where is WA? West Africa?

Not great to hear. LOL. That is the airport I fly out of every time. Including Jan 29th this month. Is it organization or just the size?
And yes, the 401 sucks, the stretch that goes through Toronto anyway.