Air Leak! PP 5W-30, 3451/5787 Mi, '08 Civic Si

[OrdnanceMarine]

I discovered a tear in one of the rubber couplers on my intake about two weeks ago while under the vehicle. I had noticed that my intake air temperatures were reading high on my datalogs (I tune and datalog with Hondata's Flashpro). Intake air temps were on the order of 30F above ambient vs. about 10F when I know my intake was working correctly so I was sucking considerable amounts of air off the back of the radiator through the tear.

I fixed the problem (Kudos to AEM for sending me a replacement part right away on their dime when this problem was likely my fault) and drove the car about 15 miles to completely warm up the engine and then dropped the oil since I was seriously concerned about what kind of damage could be done while injesting all of this unfiltered air. The results of my latest UOA are NOT what I was expecting. Trending seems to suggest that the intake leak may have started fairly recently, within the last 10,000 miles or so. I installed the intake at around 19,000 miles but with silicon being relatively low and not rising at all between the last two samples (both from the same oil run) I'm not sure what to make of it.

The sample taken at 30k miles was in response to the discovery that my datalogs were showing some knock so I wanted a baseline to see if lead dropped after I adjusted my tune to eliminate the knock. Instead, lead read higher than it ever has so I'm not sure what to make of that. It could be that sucking all of that hot air with the intake leak was resulting in the knocks I was seeing and the extra shock on the bearings was throwing the extra lead. It could be that extra grit in oil from running unfiltered air wasn't nice to the bearings. I'm at a loss. Wouldn’t there be other indicators such as copper or tin to go along with the lead if it was from the bearings? All of the other metals have been very, very low so is it possible that the lead I'm seeing is from some other source such as fuel?

With regard to silicon not changing between samples with the blatant air leak is it possible that most of it is picked up by the oil filter before it causes a serious problem? I’ve been using Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 since the first change with the past three changes and the current run bought at the same time (not sure if they were all the same lot). Oil filtration is a Purolator Pureone.

Thoughts?

Picture of the split in the intake coupling. The gap was about 3/8" when I discovered it. I had the joint loaded in one direction which caused the tear over time.

 

[volk06]

Must be some good ole SM PP to have over 3000 ca levels. Doesnt look like it did to much damage if any at all.

 

[SubLGT]

Dirty air entering the engine would be expected to cause a spike in aluminum, chromium, and iron (piston, ring, and bore wear). But that is not seen here. You have probably been sucking dirty air for a very short time.

 

[Artem]

Strange UOA based on the circumstances you described...

 

[chubbs1]

I just hope B_S is using up to date techniques for analyzing their samples. It seems that things have been steady for that engine so I guess you have nothing to worry about. There must not be a lot of dirt floating around in your area

The Pennzoil Platinum has such a great additive pack, I love that oil.

Engine looks good. Thanks for the info!

 

[ltslimjim]

So, you're in the desert(?) out west, have 'relatively' low silicon numbers, perhaps not the 'best' ppm but still low?

The bigger issue, IMO, is the oil shearing out of grade some for the Si Civic model in your location.

Anyone else think the shearing is somewhat of a red flag?

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Probably about half of the miles were done here in the desert while the other half were down in the greater Los Angeles and Central Valley of California areas.

It is interesting that flashpoint is the highest of any sample while viscosity is the lowest (not counting the FF). I think part of the reason that Honda specs a 5w-30 for this engine is that it tends to shear it down to a 20-grade oil in relatively short order, which seems to protect adequately.

Does anyone know what the bearings on these engines are made of? I'm still trying to figure out where the lead might be coming from.

 

[addyguy]

In glancing at this data set quickly, you lead is highest on the samples that have the lowest viscosity. Yes, it's still single digit, and far from a worry level, but that 'trend' is there.

Member Artem had one of these as well, modified it, and drove ot hard. He got good results using a slightly thicker Euro-spec (A3) 30-weight oil. You might want to thick about running a slightly thicker oil to see how it does.

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
In glancing at this data set quickly, you lead is highest on the samples that have the lowest viscosity. Yes, it's still single digit, and far from a worry level, but that 'trend' is there.

Member Artem had one of these as well, modified it, and drove it hard. He got good results using a slightly thicker Euro-spec (A3) 30-weight oil. You might want to think about running a slightly thicker oil to see how it does.


I was thinking of this EXACT suggestion during my post. The Euro-spec Amsoil.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: addyguy
In glancing at this data set quickly, you lead is highest on the samples that have the lowest viscosity. Yes, it's still single digit, and far from a worry level, but that 'trend' is there.

Member Artem had one of these as well, modified it, and drove it hard. He got good results using a slightly thicker Euro-spec (A3) 30-weight oil. You might want to think about running a slightly thicker oil to see how it does.


I was thinking of this EXACT suggestion during my post. The Euro-spec Amsoil.

This might be a good idea. Since I just changed the oil with more PP 5w-30, I'll sample this around 4-5k and then again around 8k or whenever I decide to change the oil. Now that I've cleaned up the ignition timing tables and am knock-free and I'm running on clean, cool air I want to see where I stand. I'm still having a hard time believing everything in this second oil analysis. Between the first and second sample of the oil I have higher Ca, no change in Si, dramatic drop in viscosity while flashpoint increased. All of this while I had a known air leak. It's obvious there's something about what's going on with this oil (or with the analyses) that I don't understand.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Found this at the EPA site:

"Because lead can be released into the air with automobile exhaust, EPA limits the amount of lead in unleaded gasoline to 0.05 grams of lead per gallon of gasoline (0.05 g/gal)."

Source: http://www.epa.gov/superfund/lead/health.htm

This works out to gasoline being able to contain up to 17 PPM of Pb. I haven't done any research to see what kind of concentrations are "normal" but nearly all of the run from 3451 mi through 5787 mi when I changed the oil was on Central Valley gasoline from Costco in Bakersfield and Fresno. I believe this gasoline is refined from oil pumped from the various oil fields in and around Kern County (Bakersfield) and is known to generally be pretty heavy sour crude. I don't know if this means it might contain lead closer to the maximum allowed by the EPA or not.

Doing a little more math if the fuel I was using contained the maximum allowable lead and all of that lead were to get in to the oil I'd end up with ~825 PPM during thos ~2700 miles. One step further and I would only need less than 1% of the lead that *could* have been in the fuel to make it's way to the oil to come up with 8 PPM in my UOA.

This is why I'm trying to figure out what kind of bearings this engine runs to see if I should be seeing tin, copper or aluminum along with the lead to confirm whether the lead is actually coming from my bearings or just from another source.

 

[cchase]

I guess its time to have an analysis done on a fuel sample in your area, if you think it's coming from there.

 

[OrdnanceMarine]

Originally Posted By: cchase
I guess its time to have an analysis done on a fuel sample in your area, if you think it's coming from there.


Might be. I think I'll try to find some UOAs from folks in the Bakersfield/Fresno areas and see if they show trace lead.