Air India Flight AI171 (Boeing 787-8) Crash

[Just a civilian pilot]

A320 has 17 things missed by pilots that will trigger the master warning plus the alpha lock protection if pilots retract the flaps too early.

Still very advanced for an older design.

Nice to see Airbus added the fuel pumps after a crew forgot to put them on during the ground cockpit check ( and cancelled the fuel pump warning which goes off about 2 minutes later if you forget ) and they climbed above the gravity feed altitude ( max altitude with pumps off to avoid air bubbles causing flame out ….15,000 feet after take off ) and both engines flamed out.


The following warnings and cautions appear in the lower part of the E/WD if the aircraft is not in
takeoff configuration when the flight crew presses the TO CONFIG pushbutton on the ECAM
control panel or applies takeoff power.
WARNINGS/CAUTIONS TO CONFIG TEST TO POWER
CONFIG RUD TRIM NOT IN TO RANGE
TRIGGERED
TRIGGERED
CONFIG PITCH TRIM NOT IN TO RANGE
F/CTL PITCH TRIM/MCDU/CG DISAGREE
CONFIG FLAPS NOT IN TO CONFIG
CONFIG SPD BRK NOT RETRACTED
CONFIG SLATS NOT IN TO CONFIG
CONFIG L SIDESTICK FAULT
CONFIG R SIDESTICK FAULT
DOOR
BRAKES HOT
F/CTL FLAP/MCDU DISAGREE
T.O SPEEDS TOO LOW
T.O V1/VR/V2 DISAGREE
T.O SPEEDS NOT INSERTED
FUEL R(L) TK PUMP 1+2 LO PR
NOT TRIGGERED
HYD G(Y) ENG 1(2) PUMP LO PR
HYD G(Y)(B) SYS LO PR
ELEC IDG 1(2) DISCONNECTED TRIGGERED if the two
GENs are inop. ELEC GEN 1(2) FAULT
ELEC GEN 1(2) OFF
CONFIG PARK BRK ON NOT TRIGGERED TRIGGERED ENG THR LEVERS NOT SET
Note: F/CTL FLAP/MCDU DISAGREE caution is inhibited in case of
CONFIG FLAPS

 

[Dave Hess]

This pilot has an interesting opinion as to what may have happened @ 11:11

I like his various videos on different subjects.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

This pilot has an interesting opinion as to what may have happened @ 11:11

I like his various videos on different subjects.

Captain Steve is late , we already talked about those three possibilities and nobody had to look at us wearing our uniform.

Sorry, the slats and flaps were down. It’s easy to see in one picture climbing out ( can see the slats out which means the flaps have to be also out ). It’s ridiculous to think they took off with flaps at zero even as a possibility given what we can see in some pictures ( rheumatoid could have taken off without enough flap , but I doubt that’s what caused the problem ).

Sorry, you can have an engine problem caused by contaminated fuel that doesn’t show up on the take off roll but does later in the flight.

Titan Airways had problems at 500 feet due to contaminated fuel and no indications of problems on the take off roll.

Listen to this guy, former NTSB, no fancy uniform but well respected ( 1 minute into the video ). Greg Feith.

I think I am going to start my own YT channel…..” Captain Canada “ or “ Mark is the Airbus guy” lol.

 

[E365]

New Juan Browne video. He and his sources think it sounds like (literally) the “RAT” Ram Air Turbine is deployed.

 

[Carmudgeon]

From the configuration, and performance, of the airplane, a “gear left down, flaps incorrectly retracted” scenario would explain the flight path.

I just find it difficult to believe.

Difficult to believe that the pilot monitoring would make so egregious an error - to leave the gear down and put the flaps up.

However, one of the challenges at a company like Air India is the fact that the pilots come from different countries.

While English has become the standard language, there have been many times when crew failed to communicate effectively and operate safely, because their primary language was something different than English and their primary languages differed.

So, while it’s hard for me to believe, I accept the possibility that the captain called for gear up and the FO put the flaps up. Even though, the gear handle is on the forward panel, and the flap handle on the throttle quadrant.

I have access to the 787 flight manual, and a day off while hanging out in Denver, I think I’m going to do a bit of light reading.

Not speculating about this incident, but…

Hard to believe, but not impossible, right?

Wasn't PIA 8303 victim to a series of cascading pilot errors that began with unprofessional chatting and subsequent failure to follow procedure?

As you've noted before, many passengers give too much consideration to the quality of flight accommodations, and not enough to the cockpit crew.

 

[mk378]

If both engines were out, one of the witnesses, especially the surviving passenger who was listening to things, would have noticed that. Also an engine not running properly usually emits smoke or flames that would have been visible on the videos.
Does the RAT make a bang noise audible in the cabin when it drops down?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

New Juan Browne video. He and his sources think it sounds like (literally) the “RAT” Ram Air Turbine is deployed.

Wow.

Engine problems would also explain the Long take off roll ( if problems occurred above V1 ).

There have been reports that the crew declared Mayday and about losing thrust but it hasn’t been confirmed yet but maybe it’s true based on the latest Juan Browne video.

Love Juan Browne, no uniform , unshaven update form the cabin.

Not flashy enough for TV news.

From the Aviation Herald:

https://avherald.com/h?article=528f27ec

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Not speculating about this incident, but…

Hard to believe, but not impossible, right?

Wasn't PIA 8303 victim to a series of cascading pilot errors that began with unprofessional chatting and subsequent failure to follow procedure?

As you've noted before, many passengers give too much consideration to the quality of flight accommodations, and not enough to the cockpit crew.

You didn’t ask me but great point. I would never have believed it was possible for a crew to screw up as bad as PIA in that crash.

It was reported that the CA had “ below average intelligence”.

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Wouldn’t contaminated fuel most likely show up in other planes as well? Or if it was a problem with the one aircraft causing the contamination, could something like that really happen in a two hour turn-around?

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Wouldn’t contaminated fuel most likely show up in other planes as well? Or if it was a problem with the one aircraft causing the contamination, could something like that really happen in a two hour turn-around?

All I can say is read about this Airbus incident.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathay_Pacific_Flight_780

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety...d-in-a321-dual-engine-incident/138004.article

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/fuel-microbiological-contamination-treatment/

 

[fdcg27]

At this point we have no more than speculation.
In terms of airman skill and knowledge, some are more informed than others but nobody is as yet informed with verifiable data.
That will come and a definitive probable cause will be arrived at.
Until then, we have a plane full of folks, mostly Indian nationals, looking for a cheap flight to visit friends and relatives in the UK, VFR travelers IOW.
Look at pricing for this route and you'll be amazed at how little a flight costs.
Tragic that they died in the process.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I don’t have any problem with people speculating about the cause of aircraft accidents as long as it’s respectful and pilots aren’t getting blamed without any verifiable data.

I also don’t like pilots names being mentioned especially when they haven’t even been blamed for an accident ( investigation ongoing ).

As a professional pilot , I can’t help but speculate.

 

[FowVay]

I pulled up the part number for one configuration for the ram air turbine on this airframe and matched it to a internet picture of one being deployed. It is tiny on this airframe. I don't know that we'd be able to tell whether it was deployed or not. Also, with the numerous flap configurations specified on this aircraft it's quite possible that they were set where specified and we just can't see it from the poor photos. The inboard flaps would be the most obvious if they are properly set and even they are not big, honking flight control surfaces that we're used to seeing on triple 7's or 67's. The 787 is a different bird from what I'm used to.

 

[Dave Hess]

Captain Steve is late , we already talked about those three possibilities and nobody had to look at us wearing our uniform.

Sorry, the slats and flaps were down. It’s easy to see in one picture climbing out ( can see the slats out which means the flaps have to be also out ). It’s ridiculous to think they took off with flaps at zero even as a possibility given what we can see in some pictures ( rheumatoid could have taken off without enough flap , but I doubt that’s what caused the problem ).

Sorry, you can have an engine problem caused by contaminated fuel that doesn’t show up on the take off roll but does later in the flight.

Titan Airways had problems at 500 feet due to contaminated fuel and no indications of problems on the take off roll.

Listen to this guy, former NTSB, no fancy uniform but well respected ( 1 minute into the video ). Greg Feith.

I think I am going to start my own YT channel…..” Captain Canada “ or “ Mark is the Airbus guy” lol.

Yes, please start a YouTube channel.

You got lots of experience, knowledge, training, flight hours and stories to be told.

Maybe you and Astro collaborate on various topics.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Thanks.

There are some pilots with very good YT channels but some are way overrated IMHO.

 

[john_pifer]

Yes, please start a YouTube channel.

You got lots of experience, knowledge, training, flight hours and stories to be told.

Maybe you and Astro collaborate on various topics.

I'd watch that!

 

[billt460]

I'd watch that!

Me too!

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I'd watch that!

Don’t put any bad ideas in my head

Actually, I haven’t done any training on the Airbus, but that’s deliberate.

I am just a line pilot. The training department isn’t for me.

 

[Dborch41]

Wouldn’t contaminated fuel most likely show up in other planes as well? Or if it was a problem with the one aircraft causing the contamination, could something like that really happen in a two hour turn-around?

My problem with the fuel contamination theory is that it appeared both engines failed at the exact same moment, which is extremely rare as each engine would react individually to the bad fuel. If they failed at even slightly different times there would have been some degree of a turn towards the first engine to lose thrust, but the aircraft's path remained relatively straight up to the impact.
Also, you are correct that it would have likely affected other aircraft at the airport, hopefully the "orange" boxes will shed some light on what really caused this tragedy.

 

[billt460]

My problem with the fuel contamination theory is that it appeared both engines failed at the exact same moment, which is extremely rare as each engine would react individually to the bad fuel.

Who is saying that? I'm not doubting you, it's just that thus far I haven't read anything in regards to both engines failing. Do you have a link?