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Air India Flight AI171 (Boeing 787-8) Crash
- Thread starter john_pifer
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500K subscribers the first year.
There was a near-miss with an L1011 over 40 years ago in which a mechanic failed to install the o-rings on the chip detectors on all 3 engines when re-installing them, and the aircraft lost all 3 engines as a result, about 20 minutes after takeoff.
They were able to get one of the engines re-started in order to land safely.
Not saying that's what happened in India, but I thought of it as I was thinking about how this could have happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_855
They were able to get one of the engines re-started in order to land safely.
Not saying that's what happened in India, but I thought of it as I was thinking about how this could have happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_855
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There are only two likely reasons IMHO it was unable to climb after reaching 400 feet above ground and losing power on both engines is certainly one of them considering the accident is very unusual.
It’s rare to lose one engine, to lose enough power making it impossible to climb would mean losing power on both engines and that’s even more rare.
I am not saying it’s fuel contamination but the only time I have heard of planes losing power on both engines is because of fuel contamination ( excluding running out of fuel obviously or birds ).
It’s more than capable of flying on one engine ( but the gear is supposed to be up ) after take off if it was just a normal engine failure on one side. That said, it’s certified to lose an engine at V1, rotate , cross the end of the runway no lower than 35 feet , select the gear up ( most drag on the aircraft other than full flaps which planes don’t take off with ) and still be able to climb.
I don’t consider it proof until verified more but there ( aviation herald ) are reports the crew declared Mayday and something about losing power/lift FWIW.
Read about the B737 that crashed because the crew forgot to select the gear up after losing an engine after take off.
I am not suggesting this is what happened with the B787 ( it’s got a lot more extra thrust ) but it shows you what can happen.
I guarantee you that if you lose one engine on the Airbus A321 at V1 , heavy , hot like in Las Vegas and forget to select the gear up…….you won’t be climbing very long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Algérie_Flight_6289
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Most likely it did, my hunch is that there were numerous alarms going off at once. From the sound of several people Air India wasn't exactly on top of maintenance and a Boeing 787 is really cutting edge and sophisticated piece of equipment.
A clue might lie in the RAT.
Was it deployed or not?
The survivor's account would seem to corroborate a brief loss of cabin electrical power after he heard what he described as a loud bang.
Compressor stall? We should be able to see some evidence of that in the various videos and I don't think we do.
Also, this man was obviously badly traumatized by his experience, so his account may not be entirely reliable.
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Every modern plane will warn pilots if the slats/flaps don’t fully travel to the selected position.
That said, there is no warning if pilots forget to put the gear up ( just for information purposes ) unlike if they forget to put it down for landing.
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Wow, that's a lot of T shirts
That's for the guy on BITOG who feels Juan Browne is often just interested in selling T shirts.
There has been new audio released of the incident, a deployed RAT has a very unique sound and it seems to be present in the audio clips. The RAT deploys automatically should both engines fail. It provides enough electric and hydraulic power to keep the aircraft flying, but not enough to retract the gear. A closer look at the main gear shows that it might possibly have started to retract before losing hydraulic power, it doesn't look to be in the normal down and locked configuration.
The likelihood of taking off with the wrong configuration or inadvertently retracting the flaps instead of the gear in an aircraft as modern as the 787 is extremely small. Everything now is pointing towards loss of power in both engines which is also very rare. We'll have to see what's on the CVR and FDR before having any real answers, fortunately those are also top of the line units.
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I can't speak about the B787, but you can take off with the wrong flap setting on the Airbus ( you can't take off with no flaps though without a warning ).
Terrorism? Suicide?
One of the pilots (or someone else) could have shut off the engines.
Remember the incident where a deadheading pilot (who had been taking psychedelic mushrooms recently) reached up from his jump seat and tried to pull the fire handles on an E175 not that long ago?
If he’d been successful, it might have cut fuel to the engines.
IDK where the engine start/stop controls are on the 787, but on the E175, if someone were to actually lift the guards and switch the engines off during takeoff, they might shut off (not sure of the system logic). And there wouldn’t be time to get them re-started if you were at a low altitude.
https://avweb.com/flight-safety/deadheading-pilot-tries-to-douse-engines-in-flight/
Now that I think about it, however, we probably would have heard something over the radio if that were the case.
One of the pilots (or someone else) could have shut off the engines.
Remember the incident where a deadheading pilot (who had been taking psychedelic mushrooms recently) reached up from his jump seat and tried to pull the fire handles on an E175 not that long ago?
If he’d been successful, it might have cut fuel to the engines.
IDK where the engine start/stop controls are on the 787, but on the E175, if someone were to actually lift the guards and switch the engines off during takeoff, they might shut off (not sure of the system logic). And there wouldn’t be time to get them re-started if you were at a low altitude.
https://avweb.com/flight-safety/deadheading-pilot-tries-to-douse-engines-in-flight/
Now that I think about it, however, we probably would have heard something over the radio if that were the case.
According to a Flightglobal article a Qantas 787 in 2021 couldn't retract its landing gear due to landing gear pins being left in place (Due to maintenance I assume). It also stated that " A flight crew received a warning that the main landing gear had not retracted even after attempts to toggle it in the UP position." It sounds like the 787 will tell you when you forget.
Qantas 787 landing gear pins left in place
A video from the previous flight was filmed at the gate saying that the Air conditioning was nonfunctioning, the seat back tablets seemed to be unresponsive as well.
So both engines run off the same tank?
Or your saying both tanks were possibly contaminated by filling from the same source?
Does the RAT make a slamming noise on these when it deploys? I was in the jump seat of a CL601 when we manually deployed it for an inspection and you certainly knew when it deployed.
Airliners are refueled from a single point and the fuel is distributed to tanks located in the wings and center section of the fuselage, the center tank is usually only filled for long-duration flights. The left wing tanks supply the left engine, and obviously the right side handles the right engine. There are also cross-feed lines and pumps so fuel can be transferred from one wing to the other as necessary.
Fuel contamination, such as water, can and has caused total engine failure. Rarely, however, do both engines fail simultaneously, usually each engine will react differently to the bad fuel and fail at separate times. I suppose it's possible that one engine failed during the takeoff roll after the decision speed, and the other a few seconds later during the initial climb, but of course that's pure conjecture.
The evidence has been leaning more towards a loss of engine power, but it's up to the orange boxes now to get any real answers.
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Pilots will not get a warning if they forget to select the gear up but they will if they select it up and it fails to go up due to mechanical problems.
Captain Steeves YouTube channel was able to obtain the original footage of the accident. It's worth a watch as its much clearer. Most of the footage was from a camera that recorded the original cellphone video. He shows what he thinks is the rat deployed and you can hear it according to him. He said the rat will deploy if there's an electrical failure, hydraulic failure or dual engine failure.
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Not a fan of his channel but, being open minded, I just watched it.
Look, even before this new audio showed up with the sound of the RAT extended, his theory ( #1 theory ) never really made sense because even if a pilot retracts the flaps by accident instead of the gear, they would have realized it very soon afterwards and put the flaps back down plus the pilot flying would have gone TOGA power and it wouldn’t have crashed IMHO. They would have recovered from that mistake and also realize they forgot to select the gear up IMHO.
Two things : Juan Browne already had the same audio ( sound of RAT out ) a few days ago which is in line with the unconfirmed reports the crew declared a Mayday about losing power/lift.
There were already grainy pictures of the RAT out several days ago.
Nothing new from his video.
That plane lost power on both engines IMHO. That also explains why the gear wasn’t up ( not enough hydraulic pressure RAT ).
To be honest, I have never heard what the RAT sounds like and learned watching Juan Browne. Makes sense, it’s a small propeller.https://feitoffake.wordpress.com/20...ash-of-the-air-india-boeing-787-flight-ai171/
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I am unfamiliar with the B787 fuel system but on the A320, if the centre tanks are full ( longer flights ) , both engines get fed from pumps in the centre tank until the tank is empty then each engine is fed by respective side wing tank. Left engine, left wing tank, right engine, right wing tank.
Edit: Airbus won’t allow the plane to take off feeding from the centre tank ( which is where the fuel gets used from first if the tank is full ) until in the air and the slats retract because gravity fuel feed is not possible if you lose both electric driven centre tank fuel pumps but the plane will still gravity feed the engines if the wing tanks failed.
They don’t want to take the chance both centre tanks fail on take off or initial climb out so the centre tanks only start feeding once we are high enough and retract the flaps which sends a signal allowing fuel be used from the centre tanks.
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I am surprised - its not a redundant setup in that configuration. So I guess fuel is on the list of possibilities.
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