Agonizing Choice-10W30 HDEO vs 10W30HDEO

[Jim Allen]

I'm suffering from a BITOG induced nitpick attack where I can't choose between two very similar oils. I need a few well-aimed kicks to my posterior to get me moving in one direction or another.

Some of you may remember that I'm on a quest for a single oil I can use in my fleet of gas and diesel pickups, car, farm tractors and small engines.

Rule one is keeping costs down but getting the best value I can for the money spent. Not gonna go boutique or high end, so don't bother with a sales job in that direction. I've reviewed ALL the options, crunched the numbers and a good quality mineral, possibly a sun-blend, is the right choice from that aspect given my low annual mileages/operating hours. Plus my general tightwad ways.

I've narrowed the viscosity choices down to a 10W30 viscosity. That viscosity will work in everything I have. It'a bit heavy in some applications and a bit light in others but it seems to be well within a safety margin in all applications... close enough at least for some experimentation.

The oil will be a CJ4/SM dual rated oil for obvious reasons.

The only potential sticky wicket is the Ford 5.4L 3V engine (w/VCT). I can monitor VCT operation and have datalogged it to death on 5W20 so I can contrast the effect a 10W30 will have on oil pressure, oil temp, and VCT operation. Not really worried about hot weather. Cold would be the issue but I am relatively confident at this point.

I am down to two oils now, both of which I have in my possession. I will be changing the oil in a few days (and you will soon see a 10K UOA on RP 5W20 w/RP filter) and I'm agonizing which oil to try first in the 5.4L. I plan to run it out at least to 7.5K if nothing bad shows up datalogging. Farther if I can.

Oil 1- Motorcraft 10W30 Super Duty Diesel Oil CJ4/SM

Flash- 441F
12.0 cSt @ 100
80 cSt @ 40
6200 cP @ -30C
VI- 146
PP- -45C (-49F)
TBN- 8.4

Oil 2- 10W30 Rotella T5 CJ4/SM

Flash- 435F
12.0 cSt @ 100C
78.9 cSt @ 40
6000 cP @ -25 C
VI- 147
PP- -42C (-44F)
TBN 10.0

The regular price of the T5 is about $.60 more a quart than the MC, but I got the T5 on sale at about the same price as retail on the MC but I have found the MC a bit cheaper that retail.

I don't see a lot to choose between them... a statistical dead heat, especially considering "manufacturing tolerances." When you compare the CCV temps -30 to -25, it looks like they about even out pretty much too. The biggest difference is TBN but, in a gas engine, a lower TBN is likely a bit better in terms of potential cat converter contamination. I'd rather have a bit more TBN in my diesels but I'm not sure that the difference is enough to worry about in either case.

Boot away. No steel toes or boot knives, please ( : < )!

 

[Astro14]

If they are the same performance, same price....then which one is more available locally? Your time/convenience of finding it counts too...

 

[Gokhan]

These are actually quite different oils. Motorcraft is conventional and Rotella T5 is synthetic blend. A diesel engine could potentially shear a conventional 10W-30 at high operating temperatures; so, I would go with Rotella T5. Also, Rotella T5 would provide longer drain intervals. One other advantage is TBN as you mentioned.

 

[Johnny]

Well Jim, bend over and let me kick you in the butt with my SHELL boot. I personally don't believe there is a better 10W-30 HDEO on the market than the T5. It has been tested and proven in to many applications.

Now, put in the T5, enjoy that cup of coffee, and sleep well at night.

 

[mongo161]

All very interesting.

I've been using the Dino Shell Rotella 15w40, Mobil Delvac Super 1300 15w40 and Chevron Delo 400 LE with a mix of either Formula shell 5w20, Formula Shell synthetic 5w20, PYB 5w20, QSUD synthetic 5w20 or Mobil EP 5w20 or 5w30 in Family, Friends and neighbors cars for OCI's recently.

I felt that 15w40, as a stand alone in these gasoline engines, was too potent. So I've been cutting the oil down to an unscientific blend. Usually a 50/50, 60/40 or 75/25 mix of the Dino Diesel to the PCMO's.

All engines, from the reports I've gotten back, are running just fine with Pure One, Napa Gold and Purolator Classic oil filters.

I know I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to scientific measurements of lubricating oils...and I'm no tribologist....but sometimes we must try and find the most durable formula for severe driving conditions in NYC. Nothing has blown up yet....so that's a good sign.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
If they are the same performance, same price....then which one is more available locally? Your time/convenience of finding it counts too...


Good point but they are about equal... which adds to the agony..

 

[TallPaul]

I like the higher TBN of the Rotella. All else seems to be insignificant differences for the use you would be putting to it.

 

[edhackett]

Jim, I'd take the T5 also. In fact I have, it's in everything I have except the 1917 Fairbanks Morse(total loss system) and the Triumph(15W50 synthetic needed there).

My choice of Rotella oils is based on working with Terry concerning fuel dilution in my turbo Subarus. The Rotella line resists fuel dilution damage better than most any oil out there.

Ed

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
These are actually quite different oils. Motorcraft is conventional and Rotella T5 is synthetic blend. A diesel engine could potentially shear a conventional 10W-30 at high operating temperatures; so, I would go with Rotella T5. Also, Rotella T5 would provide longer drain intervals. One other advantage is TBN as you mentioned.


T5 is a mix of Gp II+ and Gp III (what percentage Gp III, who knows). The similarity of VI might be a telling statistic. A high percentage of syn should have brought the VI a little higher, I would think.The MC is a Gp II+. By itself, the differences in these two base oils probably aren't going to amount to all that much BUT Shell Rotella does have a particularly good base oil in general, no matter what group. How it would stack up the the Conoco-blended Motorcraft remains to be seen.

The TBN works for me in the diesels and agin me in the gasser. High TBN oils are more IN GENERAL prone to poisoning a cat than a lower TBN. There's a lot more to it than that, but I know the Shell has a VERY strong additive package. Again, picking nits in the extreme.

I know from experience that none of the engines these oils will be used in have sheared (to any degree), even in long use, using a small sampling of oils. The MC is a wildcard because I've never used it, but since it was designed for the Ford Power Stroke, and engine known for shearing the best oils, the indicators are that it would do well in that regard.

Hoping for more comments on the differences in CCV. The 5W20 oils are in the neighborhood of 5000-5500 cP @ -35, so even the best of these two can't hold a candle.....

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Jim, I'd take the T5 also. In fact I have, it's in everything I have except the 1917 Fairbanks Morse(total loss system) and the Triumph(15W50 synthetic needed there).

My choice of Rotella oils is based on working with Terry concerning fuel dilution in my turbo Subarus. The Rotella line resists fuel dilution damage better than most any oil out there.

Ed


I have seen some MC 15W40 UOAs and I didn't see anything to indicate they weren't more than adequate in that department... but it still an unknown quantity in my case. Again, experience has shown that none of my engines are particularly bad in the fuel dilution department. One (the Neuss D358 diesel) could be, big time, but I manage it via operational means.


Again, my agony is over the 5.4L more than the diesels. I have a jug of each in each hand.

I'm the indecisive guy in the two-holer outhouse. I gotta GO but can't make up my mind on which hole. ( : < )

 

[Rob_Roy]

Jim, is your F150 parked outside in the winter? What kind of cold start temperatures do you typically encounter?

Have you priced the T5 in a drum from a local jobber?

-Rob

 

[ARCOgraphite]

You dont have to pick between the two unless a specific application requires one or the other. One oil may work best in a particular app. Without thinking much, I know Rotella 10w-30 triple protect was/is a good oil and I'll bet the T5 is better. Other than Vis and W rating (within a service classification) I dont think minor specs tell you ANYTHING much about an oil - the base oil blend still has to be dang good. A good oil with a good addpack is better than a poor oil with a great add pack IMO. Give me 2200ppm Ca, 1200ppm Zn 300ppm Moly blended into a slackwax + group II+ base and I'll be a happy camper forever.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Jim, is your F150 parked outside in the winter? What kind of cold start temperatures do you typically encounter?

Have you priced the T5 in a drum from a local jobber?

-Rob


Garaged in winter and cold-started there 98 percent of the time @ 38-45 degrees. Typically, the worst winter temps are above zero F, in the teens. Once in a while, single digits and even once or twice a tick or two below 0F.

Have not priced drums. Not sure I want to go that route. The oil would be pretty old by the time I used it all given that some of my OCIs run two and three years. Feel better about storing small volumes in smaller containers with little airspace in the container. Have gone the 5-gal route, however.

 

[Rob_Roy]

I doubt you will not notice the difference in viscosity at those temperatures. I understand the the drum deal, just wasn't sure how much oil you went through.

 

[roadrunner1]

Jim, if you are considering the bulk route Andersens can get it for you, I assume you are familiar with thier stores. Did you ever check with your Deere dealer? The one closest to me is Bay Tractor (Buhrows), other than Ott I think they are all owned by the same group in our area.

 

[edhackett]

Actually, the T5 is a blend of II+ and IV according to the MSDS.

Ed

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Actually, the T5 is a blend of II+ and IV according to the MSDS.

Ed
T5 MSDS

Quick look but not seeing it there.

 

[edhackett]

Polyolefins listed in section 2. It's most likely referring to PAO, but could be a VI improver, although I've never seen an MSDS list VI improvers separately. I know MSDS are not the best for determining formulation.

I seem to remember the II+ IV blend information coming from Johnny. Maybe he can chime in on this.

Ed

 

[Johnny]

I'm chiming in but I'm not 100% sure. It could be PAO but I tend to think it would be more likely to be the XHVI they use in the T6 oils. I've asked a couple of the techs at Shell, but they are not talking.

 

[A_Harman]

If your main concern is for the Ford 5.4, use the MC. Then would it be too much trouble to do UOA'a on your diesels to monitor TBN depletion?