Who's been calling my name!?
Last edited:
Additives are becoming the base oils?
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........
Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.
My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.
Sued / disputed with API
the fact remains the same - Mobil oil took a nose dive after that as far as quality ingredients and Castrol has lead the way to making cheap oil labeled as full synthetic .
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........
Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.
My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.
Sued / disputed with API
the fact remains the same - Mobil oil took a nose dive after that as far as quality ingredients and Castrol has lead the way to making cheap oil labeled as full synthetic .
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: badnews
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........
Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.
My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.
Sued / disputed with API
the fact remains the same - Mobil oil took a nose dive after that as far as quality ingredients and Castrol has lead the way to making cheap oil labeled as full synthetic .
Mobil is still the world's largest provider of PAO and ester base stocks. A quick perusal of ExxonMobilChemical will give you an idea as to the scope of their offerings.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........
Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.
My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.
Sued / disputed with API
the fact remains the same - Mobil oil took a nose dive after that as far as quality ingredients and Castrol has lead the way to making cheap oil labeled as full synthetic .
Mobil is still the world's largest provider of PAO and ester base stocks. A quick perusal of ExxonMobilChemical will give you an idea as to the scope of their offerings.
I wonder if esters were that good as a basestock etc, if a company like Exxon Mobil could not make them in huge mass quantities eliminating the high cost, then they would be able to offer the consumer a product a lot cheaper than other oil makers. This is just a thought, if the real synthetics are that much better than the group III I can't imagine the big oil manufactures not finding a way to cut the cost of making them be it huge quantity or whatever.
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
Last edited:
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: rclint
I wonder if esters were that good as a basestock etc, if a company like Exxon Mobil could not make them in huge mass quantities eliminating the high cost, then they would be able to offer the consumer a product a lot cheaper than other oil makers. This is just a thought, if the real synthetics are that much better than the group III I can't imagine the big oil manufactures not finding a way to cut the cost of making them be it huge quantity or whatever.
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
All of the products cited from the ExxonMobilChemical site are produced in mass quantities. One of those products is esters. Mobil seems to have chosen AN's for their own Mobil 1 products from what has been mentioned on here. They produce both, so there has to be a reason (other than cost, which is not likely much of an issue given this fact) that they are moving to the one over the other......
I wonder if esters were that good as a basestock etc, if a company like Exxon Mobil could not make them in huge mass quantities eliminating the high cost, then they would be able to offer the consumer a product a lot cheaper than other oil makers. This is just a thought, if the real synthetics are that much better than the group III I can't imagine the big oil manufactures not finding a way to cut the cost of making them be it huge quantity or whatever.
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
All of the products cited from the ExxonMobilChemical site are produced in mass quantities. One of those products is esters. Mobil seems to have chosen AN's for their own Mobil 1 products from what has been mentioned on here. They produce both, so there has to be a reason (other than cost, which is not likely much of an issue given this fact) that they are moving to the one over the other......
Originally Posted By: rclint
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
Originally Posted By: priler
in PCMO ester technology can be found in several different forms.
#1-as part of the base oil.(several different types and many cuts and in different %)
#2-as part of the actual additive technology coming from an ester based chemical that can serve a specific purpose.(or more than one)
#3-as the carrier oil for the additive package.(possibly because the particular base oils used could benefit or even need it)
the entire ester family is huge and has to do with much more than just motor oil.it's in your body right now.
as to the comment of "additives becoming the base oils",i'm not sure where that came from.maybe it's from #2 and/or #3?,...or maybe from something totally different.is it a reference to a specific type of technology?(other than the many different sources from which base oils can come from)
as an aside,the more they refine grp 3 to improve it's quality,the more it's characteristics come to be like PAO,including solvency.(NOT)(and more expensive)
Thanks!
in PCMO ester technology can be found in several different forms.
#1-as part of the base oil.(several different types and many cuts and in different %)
#2-as part of the actual additive technology coming from an ester based chemical that can serve a specific purpose.(or more than one)
#3-as the carrier oil for the additive package.(possibly because the particular base oils used could benefit or even need it)
the entire ester family is huge and has to do with much more than just motor oil.it's in your body right now.
as to the comment of "additives becoming the base oils",i'm not sure where that came from.maybe it's from #2 and/or #3?,...or maybe from something totally different.is it a reference to a specific type of technology?(other than the many different sources from which base oils can come from)
as an aside,the more they refine grp 3 to improve it's quality,the more it's characteristics come to be like PAO,including solvency.(NOT)(and more expensive)
Thanks!
From Molekule:
Quote:
Also Molakule's comment (since he is the foremost tribologist on this board), "And everything you have read or have been old about Mag, moly, calcium, etc., you may as well forget about it.
New chemistries are changing the face of that bottle of oil.
Instead, you should be looking at the performance and UOA results of oils and look for trending of wear metals."
Quote:
Also Molakule's comment (since he is the foremost tribologist on this board), "And everything you have read or have been old about Mag, moly, calcium, etc., you may as well forget about it.
New chemistries are changing the face of that bottle of oil.
Instead, you should be looking at the performance and UOA results of oils and look for trending of wear metals."
ZDDP is an ester...
They may use some for seal swell as well. These are not considered part of the "base oil".
They may use some for seal swell as well. These are not considered part of the "base oil".
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: rclint
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
BINGO, at the end of the day it is all about profit and the bottom line. Group III oils are fantastic I'm sure, but they are also cheaper to make. In reality they might be almost as good as Group IV and V, but maybe just, just maybe, not quite as good. JMO
Originally Posted By: rclint
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
BINGO, at the end of the day it is all about profit and the bottom line. Group III oils are fantastic I'm sure, but they are also cheaper to make. In reality they might be almost as good as Group IV and V, but maybe just, just maybe, not quite as good. JMO
Originally Posted By: JAG
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
Bingo!
Generally the marketing folks determine what is needed to maximize sales (approvals. specifications, performance claims, price, etc.), and R&D's job is to meet those marketing targets at minimum cost. There are exceptions, such as when R&D discoveries influence marketing and allow product distinction - then the marketing claims revolve around the new discovery.
Esters are expensive and their use is usually restricted to an "as needed" basis when cost is the primary driver. When performance is the primary driver, esters are used at higher quantities and the oil price is often higher.
The most common "needed" qualities of esters are seal compatibility and additive solubility. These benefits are often not needed in Group III products as the Group III base oils have sufficient polarity to do the job. Other ester benefits like cleanliness, lubricity, and oxidative stability, require higher quantities of the expensive esters, and are reserved for higher priced performance driven oils. For cost driven oils, additives can achieve these attributes to an acceptable degree and at a lower cost without esters.
Esters are produced in high volumes. The high cost comes from the raw materials.
Tom NJ
ps - I am traveling so participation may be limited.
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
Bingo!
Generally the marketing folks determine what is needed to maximize sales (approvals. specifications, performance claims, price, etc.), and R&D's job is to meet those marketing targets at minimum cost. There are exceptions, such as when R&D discoveries influence marketing and allow product distinction - then the marketing claims revolve around the new discovery.
Esters are expensive and their use is usually restricted to an "as needed" basis when cost is the primary driver. When performance is the primary driver, esters are used at higher quantities and the oil price is often higher.
The most common "needed" qualities of esters are seal compatibility and additive solubility. These benefits are often not needed in Group III products as the Group III base oils have sufficient polarity to do the job. Other ester benefits like cleanliness, lubricity, and oxidative stability, require higher quantities of the expensive esters, and are reserved for higher priced performance driven oils. For cost driven oils, additives can achieve these attributes to an acceptable degree and at a lower cost without esters.
Esters are produced in high volumes. The high cost comes from the raw materials.
Tom NJ
ps - I am traveling so participation may be limited.
Tom, travel, but hurry back we need guys like you for your input and knowledge.
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: rclint
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
Exactly and that was why I posted a question to Pennzoil about the higher quality of European oil .
They skirted the issue and responded with [censored] about regional requirements for oils. Like a Toyota going 100 MPH on the autoban is harder on the engine than my Toyota driving in the 110 degree heat at a crawl for hours while off road ?
I think the higher quality has more to do with higher demanded service ratings from that Euopean segment - who is very attune to vehicle requirements.
Fact is Amercan oils are not as robust as European oils .
While I respect Pennzoil for taking the time to do a Q and A ... the answers were IMO less than the truth and nothing but the truth
Originally Posted By: rclint
It seems all of the big off the shelf oil manufactures are turning to group III type oils, I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject of synthetics, however I do know if the market bears a need someone will fill it in a mass market (one of the big oil manufactures) yet we don't see this with "real" synthetics, it's mostly boutique type oil manufactures that offer real synthetics, and what really rocks the boat for me is from reading these boutique oil manufactures get their basestocks (ester whatever) from major oil manufactures like Exxon Mobil !!
The market is mostly driven by the oil specifications and many of them can be met with little or no Groups IV and V, so that's what is often chosen for profit reasons.
Exactly and that was why I posted a question to Pennzoil about the higher quality of European oil .
They skirted the issue and responded with [censored] about regional requirements for oils. Like a Toyota going 100 MPH on the autoban is harder on the engine than my Toyota driving in the 110 degree heat at a crawl for hours while off road ?
I think the higher quality has more to do with higher demanded service ratings from that Euopean segment - who is very attune to vehicle requirements.
Fact is Amercan oils are not as robust as European oils .
While I respect Pennzoil for taking the time to do a Q and A ... the answers were IMO less than the truth and nothing but the truth
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Originally Posted By: badnews
Exactly and that was why I posted a question to Pennzoil about the higher quality of European oil .
They skirted the issue and responded with [censored] about regional requirements for oils. Like a Toyota going 100 MPH on the autoban is harder on the engine than my Toyota driving in the 110 degree heat at a crawl for hours while off road ?
I think the higher quality has more to do with higher demanded service ratings from that Euopean segment - who is very attune to vehicle requirements.
Fact is Amercan oils are not as robust as European oils .
Not quite a fair comparison. While not necessarily off as stated, oil in Europe does't come in 3k. If you did, you have a very thick wallet.
Fatigue factors and value added consumption of a coproduct of fuel refining.
Exactly and that was why I posted a question to Pennzoil about the higher quality of European oil .
They skirted the issue and responded with [censored] about regional requirements for oils. Like a Toyota going 100 MPH on the autoban is harder on the engine than my Toyota driving in the 110 degree heat at a crawl for hours while off road ?
I think the higher quality has more to do with higher demanded service ratings from that Euopean segment - who is very attune to vehicle requirements.
Fact is Amercan oils are not as robust as European oils .
Not quite a fair comparison. While not necessarily off as stated, oil in Europe does't come in 3k. If you did, you have a very thick wallet.
Fatigue factors and value added consumption of a coproduct of fuel refining.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
European oil specs are usually driven by long drain requirements.
To the extent that European oils are generally more robust than American oils meeting only API specs, it is mostly to accomodate longer service intervals.
Long drain requirements and use in high performance engines and/or severe operating conditions as defined by the manufacturer.
ACEA Oil Sequences pdf. Page 5.
-Dennis
European oil specs are usually driven by long drain requirements.
To the extent that European oils are generally more robust than American oils meeting only API specs, it is mostly to accomodate longer service intervals.
Long drain requirements and use in high performance engines and/or severe operating conditions as defined by the manufacturer.
ACEA Oil Sequences pdf. Page 5.
-Dennis
There are plenty of high performance engines sold in the US from both local and Asian manufacturers that call for no special oil specs, your Subaru turbo being a good example.
It merely calls for more frequent changes than the NA model, not any special oil.
The same is true for vehicles operated under severe conditions in this country.
I would therefore suggest that it is the long drain requirements that drive European oil specs.
Motor oil in the US is resonably priced, so frequent changes are no hardship, while European motor oil prices make both Redline and Amsoil product prices in the US look like a steal.
It merely calls for more frequent changes than the NA model, not any special oil.
The same is true for vehicles operated under severe conditions in this country.
I would therefore suggest that it is the long drain requirements that drive European oil specs.
Motor oil in the US is resonably priced, so frequent changes are no hardship, while European motor oil prices make both Redline and Amsoil product prices in the US look like a steal.
- Status
