Additives are becoming the base oils?

[buster]

Synpower and PU don't use esters in their oils. I find that interesting. A former BITOG member once said that additives are becoming the base oils. I don't know how much of this is true, but from what I read, it's become a trend. From what I understand, esters have always been one of the most costly components. (Why many like Redline). bruce/mola/Tom maybe can chime in here.

In the Pennzoil FAQ page, they mentioned how Grp III's have better solvency.

I'm sure it goes back to the same general concept, which is that oils can be built very well using a variety of components, therefore only the end result is what matters.

In other words, don't equate base oil #'s with performance. It's the total product as mentioned all the time.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: buster
In the Pennzoil FAQ page, they mentioned how Grp III's have better solvency.


They mentioned that Group III has better solvency than PAO, but what base oil doesn't?

 

[buster]

True. It's interesting though these new synthetics are essentially esterless.

 

[Ben99GT]

The lack of esters (or other polar base oils) in essentially non-polar group III weirds me out, personally. I'm guessing Pennzoil is including something into their blends to compensate though. I like the product more than most though, whatever they are doing.

 

[buster]

I remember reading an article years ago that talked about how they want to replace expensive esters with additives. Who knows what these additive companies like Lubrizol have to offer now. That's why bruce/mola or tom need to clarify.

 

[Pablo]

Not using esters (or PAO's) saves BIG money. Yet the oil prices seem pretty high still.

 

[buster]

Yeah good point.

 

[rewote500]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Not using esters (or PAO's) saves BIG money. Yet the oil prices seem pretty high still.


+2

 

[d00df00d]

To paraphrase something Tom said:

What the oil costs to make is none of our business. These companies aren't trying to help us out. They are trying to make money. The price we pay is supposed to match the performance. If one oil performs better than another, or carries a more valuable certification, then it is entirely fair that we should expect to pay more for it regardless of how it's made.

Besides, there are a TON of things we DON'T know about how much this oil costs SOPUS. What about the additive pack? The R&D? What if they need to sell this stuff at a higher price to pay for some other related projects? We don't know, we never will, and speculating only distracts us from honestly evaluating the oil's performance.

Why do people not understand this? Maybe I'm weird but this really doesn't seem to me like a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[buster]

Absolutely d00df00d. I'm just bringing it up because it's interesting, not because I think it's a "good or bad" thing.

 

[Pablo]

dOOd - I'm hearing you bro, but I've never seen this when the price of Amsoil is held up like the axe murderer on a noose.

 

[badnews]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
To paraphrase something Tom said:

What the oil costs to make is none of our business. These companies aren't trying to help us out. They are trying to make money. The price we pay is supposed to match the performance. If one oil performs better than another, or carries a more valuable certification, then it is entirely fair that we should expect to pay more for it regardless of how it's made.

Besides, there are a TON of things we DON'T know about how much this oil costs SOPUS. What about the additive pack? The R&D? What if they need to sell this stuff at a higher price to pay for some other related projects? We don't know, we never will, and speculating only distracts us from honestly evaluating the oil's performance.

Why do people not understand this? Maybe I'm weird but this really doesn't seem to me like a difficult concept to grasp.


Don't make their problems my problem and I won't burden them with mine .
Doesn't seem to me like a difficult concept to grasp.

If they produce a inferior oil at a increased price due to the advertisement program they need to push /sell it I do care . This all began with Castrol vs Mobil when Castrol pumped out a cheap to manufacture oil and called it full synthetic . Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped on board with Castrol to make a cheaper oil at increased price .

Where this all will head is consumer driven .

 

[buster]

Additive technology is always advancing. You can't just jump to the conclusion that it's inferior. It's called progress.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: badnews
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
To paraphrase something Tom said:

What the oil costs to make is none of our business. These companies aren't trying to help us out. They are trying to make money. The price we pay is supposed to match the performance. If one oil performs better than another, or carries a more valuable certification, then it is entirely fair that we should expect to pay more for it regardless of how it's made.

Besides, there are a TON of things we DON'T know about how much this oil costs SOPUS. What about the additive pack? The R&D? What if they need to sell this stuff at a higher price to pay for some other related projects? We don't know, we never will, and speculating only distracts us from honestly evaluating the oil's performance.

Why do people not understand this? Maybe I'm weird but this really doesn't seem to me like a difficult concept to grasp.


Don't make their problems my problem and I won't burden them with mine .
Doesn't seem to me like a difficult concept to grasp.

If they produce a inferior oil at a increased price due to the advertisement program they need to push /sell it I do care . This all began with Castrol vs Mobil when Castrol pumped out a cheap to manufacture oil and called it full synthetic . Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped on board with Castrol to make a cheaper oil at increased price .

Where this all will head is consumer driven .


They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.

 

[OVERKILL]

http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Chem-English/productsservices/synthetic-basestocks.aspx


SpectraSyn Ultra™ High VI PAO
Benefit from increased film thickness, extra energy efficiency and low-temperature fluidity across a full range of viscosities.



SpectraSyn Plus™ Advanced PAO
Use this unique combination of low volatility and low-temperature fluidity to produce more-advanced lubricants.



SpectraSyn™ Hi Vis PAO
Increase basestock viscosity and upgrade lubricant quality with blend components especially suited for industrial oils requiring high stability under harsh operating conditions.



SpectraSyn™ Lo Vis PAO
Meet fluidity performance requirements for a variety of synthetic and synthetic-blend lubricants.



Synesstic™ AN Blendstocks
Improve your lubricant performance with highly stable alkylated naphthalene blendstocks offering hydrolytic, thermal and oxidative stability.



Esterex™ Esters
Add enhanced lubricating properties along with low volatility and low-temperature characteristics to your engine and industrial lubricant applications.

------------------------------------------------------------


My understanding, from a recent discussion of this on this board is that AN's are becoming the preferred substitute for esters in many cases.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........


Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.



My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........


Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.



My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.


HHAHAAHAHHAAHA, Pabs

Comically enough, it was this site that gave me the info I cited. I too, when I first joined thought that Mobil sued Castrol.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: badnews
Castrol was sued by Mobil - Mobil lost and they jumped ..........


Quote:
They weren't sued. It was a dispute brought before the API.



My goodness. We really need a factual FAQ. Can SOMEONE please make BITOG a legit source of info? So much swahedlin flying.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/950368/

 

[priler]

in PCMO ester technology can be found in several different forms.

#1-as part of the base oil.(several different types and many cuts and in different %)
#2-as part of the actual additive technology coming from an ester based chemical that can serve a specific purpose.(or more than one)
#3-as the carrier oil for the additive package.(possibly because the particular base oils used could benefit or even need it)

the entire ester family is huge and has to do with much more than just motor oil.it's in your body right now.

as to the comment of "additives becoming the base oils",i'm not sure where that came from.maybe it's from #2 and/or #3?,...or maybe from something totally different.is it a reference to a specific type of technology?(other than the many different sources from which base oils can come from)

as an aside,the more they refine grp 3 to improve it's quality,the more it's characteristics come to be like PAO,including solvency.(NOT)(and more expensive)

 

[demarpaint]

I think all of this equates to dollars and cents. Group III oils are great, they are also cheaper to make. If a company is formulating their oil/oils from Group III it makes sense that they hype the benefits of Group III. Their goal is to educate the sector of their customer base that might care or actually knows something about oil. Why do you think Pennzoil took the time to answer questions on Bitog? We're the sector that knows about oils and cares.

A company like Red Line using a different base which is more costly is going state that their product is better because....... and state their case. I believe Red Line's customer base for the most part knows a little more than the average Pennzoil customer.

My intent is not to insult anyone, I am a Pennzoil customer. Once again every oil made is blended to a price point, some more costly and better than others. JMO