Acea A3/B4 vs C3 vs E11

[jeremy94]

My question is mainly about engine oil theory, not necessarily if a particular oil will work in a specific application.

As I understand it, the main differences between diesel engine oil and gas engine oil are:

- Base stock is more robust in diesel oil
- A higher quantity of additives in diesel oil

It seems in the past, diesel engine oil was more separated from gas engine oil than it is today. Now, the lines are blurred (i.e. oil meeting both API CK-4 and API SP). Of course, ACEA has had PCMO gas/diesel combined for years now. But there seems to be no oils that meet, for example, both ACEA C3 and ACEA E11.

My question is, why can’t there be an oil that meets both C3 and E11?

 

[Bailes1992]

E9 has just been replaced by E11, although they're very similar.

E9/E11 have a SAPS limit of 1% and are usually 'maxed-out' in this regard. C3 have a SAPS limit of 0.8%.

That said, I have in the past and would in the future use E9/E11 oils where C3 is required if available at the right price.

 

[jeremy94]

E9 has just been replaced by E11, although they're very similar.

E9/E11 have a SAPS limit of 1% and are usually 'maxed-out' in this regard. C3 have a SAPS limit of 0.8%.

That said, I have in the past and would in the future use E9/E11 oils where C3 is required if available at the right price.

So it appears SAPS are the limiting factor, and also why A3/B4 can’t meet E11.

 

[Bailes1992]

So it appears SAPS are the limiting factor, and also why A3/B4 can’t meet E11.

Most A3/B4 oils have a SAPS level of 1.2% or higher in my experience.

Unless it was some mega-sensitive, complicated performance engine, I'd probably throw an E9 or E11 lube in a car that specifies A3/B4 also. Most of them come with API SN also, so you're confident they would be okay in a petrol engine.

 

[930.engineering]

.
What vehicle, what engine?
.

 

[madjid]

Most A3/B4 oils have a SAPS level of 1.2% or higher in my experience.

Unless it was some mega-sensitive, complicated performance engine, I'd probably throw an E9 or E11 lube in a car that specifies A3/B4 also. Most of them come with API SN also, so you're confident they would be okay in a petrol engine.

hello there I've been looking in your threads for the past month for all kinds of information about HDEO related to the DV6 engine
I have the DV6DTED M which is the 92ps 8 valve version with EGR and catalyst no DPF/SCR
I sourced a lot of cheap HDEO Yacco brand oils locally and I want to know which would work best to provide the best wear protection

PS: running high sulfur fuel maybe around 2000 ppm
the temperature here rarely drops below -5 C and goes up to 45 C in the summer

the engine did 180k km now and it's 9 years old
i do ~ 80% city 20% highway + rarely short trips + couple of engine stop-start daily

Throughout the years I've filled Total 5w30 INEO ECS and for the last 6 oil changes I've filled it with Total 0W30 INEO First as per the official UK Total website recommendations
OCI is 10K km
For the last OCI, i noticed it lost around ~300ml of oil which it didn't use to do before and i think it did just in the last 3k of the OCI not sure though

the Yacco products are : ( from the cheapest to the most expensive relatively per litre )

TRANSPRO 65S NewTech SAE 10W40 ( i can tell from the approvals that noack <= 11 | zinc/phosphorus <= 800 ppm | calcium <= 1500 ppm )
VX 500 10W40
LUBE GDI 10W30
VX 1000 FAP 5W40 ( almost 2x the price of TRANSPRO 40S 10W40 )

i also found Castrol Vecton 15w40 ck-4/E9 and and Total 9000 5w40 for a similar price as the TRANSPRO 40S


I mailed Yacco for more detailed information about the products and advice it's been almost 15 days with no reply
+ Unfortunately, I don't have the option to do UOA

Please help i would be very thankful

 

[madjid]

ACEA specs

 

[SR5]

E9 has just been replaced by E11, although they're very similar.

E9/E11 have a SAPS limit of 1% and are usually 'maxed-out' in this regard. C3 have a SAPS limit of 0.8%.

That said, I have in the past and would in the future use E9/E11 oils where C3 is required if available at the right price.

Most A3/B4 oils have a SAPS level of 1.2% or higher in my experience.

Unless it was some mega-sensitive, complicated performance engine, I'd probably throw an E9 or E11 lube in a car that specifies A3/B4 also. Most of them come with API SN also, so you're confident they would be okay in a petrol engine.

Fantastic answers from Bailes.
I was going to type something, but @Bailes1992 beat me to it.

Similar talk here
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/ck-4-e9-substitute-ll-04-in-bmw-n47-seq-oz.384175/

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

As I understand it, the main differences between diesel engine oil and gas engine oil are:

- Base stock is more robust in diesel oil
- A higher quantity of additives in diesel oil

No.
Yes and no.

It seems in the past, diesel engine oil was more separated from gas engine oil than it is today. Now, the lines are blurred (i.e. oil meeting both API CK-4 and API SP). Of course, ACEA has had PCMO gas/diesel combined for years now. But there seems to be no oils that meet, for example, both ACEA C3 and ACEA E11.

There shouldn't be. As you know Cx is written for both gas/diesel where as E11 is heavy duty diesel. Gas runs hotter and turbos spin at higher RPMS than a diesel engine which would use an Ex oil. As I understand it there are versions of ZDDP which won't function as well in a gas engine in addition to differing levels of anti-foam additive.

 

[Bailes1992]

There shouldn't be. As you know Cx is written for both gas/diesel where as E11 is heavy duty diesel. Gas runs hotter and turbos spin at higher RPMS than a diesel engine which would use an Ex oil. As I understand it there are versions of ZDDP which won't function as well in a gas engine in addition to differing levels of anti-foam additive.

I disagree. Diesel engines in trucks around here will be working their turbos far harder for longer periods of time than most petrol powered cars. My biggest concern with 'E' oils is the ability to manage foam. However, a lot of E9 or E11 oils carry specifications and approvals related with CNG/LPG engines along with ACEA SN, so I figure my worries are generally unfounded.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I disagree. Diesel engines in trucks around here will be working their turbos far harder for longer periods of time than most petrol powered cars. My biggest concern with 'E' oils is the ability to manage foam. However, a lot of E9 or E11 oils carry specifications and approvals related with CNG/LPG engines along with ACEA SN, so I figure my worries are generally unfounded.

I'd say heavy duty diesels have larger sumps and run very lean at idle which is why they shed heat so quickly. You could always ask these guys on your side of the pond (LINK)