A3/B4 in HDEO application, what would go wrong?

[burbguy82]

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php​

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A/B: gasoline and diesel engine oils​

ACEA A1/B1 Category is removed with the ACEA 2016 Oil Sequences. From ACEA 2012: Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

ACEA A3/B3 Category is removed with the ACEA 2022 Oil Sequences. From ACEA 2016: Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of Low Viscosity Oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the Engine Manufacturer.

ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use at extended Drain Intervals in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa*s. These Oils are unsuitable for use in certain Engines - consult vehicle-OEM’s owner’s manual/handbook in case of doubt.

ACEA A7/B7 Stable, stay-in-grade engine oil intended for use at extended oil drain intervals in passenger car and light-duty gasoline and DI diesel engines designed for low viscosity engine oils with HTHS viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa*s. Relative to A5/B5, these engine oils provide also low-speed pre-ignition and wear protection for turbocharged gasoline DI engines, as well as turbocharger compressor deposit (TCCD) protection for modern DI diesel engines. These engine oils are unsuitable for use in certain engines – consult manufacturers’ owner manual/handbook in case of doubt.

E: Heavy Duty Diesel engine oils​

ACEA E4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing excellent control of piston cleanliness, wear, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV and Euro V emission requirements and running under very severe conditions, e.g. significantly extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer's recommendations. It is suitable for engines without particulate filters, and for some EGR engines and some engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so Driver Manuals and/or Dealers shall be consulted if in doubt.

ACEA E8 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing excellent control of piston cleanliness, wear, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly-rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, Euro V and Euro VI emission requirements and running under very severe conditions, eg significantly extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer’s recommendations. It is suitable for EGR engines, with or without particulate filters, and for engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. E8 quality is strongly recommended for engines fitted with particulate filters and is designed for use in combination with low-sulphur diesel fuel. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers, so driver manuals and/or dealers must be consulted if in doubt.

ACEA E7 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing effective control with respect to piston cleanliness and bore polishing. It further provides excellent wear control, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV and Euro V emission requirements and running under severe conditions, e.g. extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer's recommendations. It is suitable for engines without particulate filters, and for most EGR engines and most engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so Driver Manuals and/or Dealers shall be consulted if in doubt.

ACEA E11 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing effective control with respect to piston cleanliness and bore polishing. It further provides excellent wear control, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, Euro V and Euro VI emission requirements and running under severe conditions, eg extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer’s recommendations. It is suitable for engines with or without particulate filters, and for most EGR engines and for most engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. E11 is strongly recommended for engines fitted with particulate filters and is designed for use in combination with low-sulphur diesel fuel. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so driver manuals and/or dealers should be consulted if in doubt.

 

[burbguy82]

I actually wonder this too. Has anyone compared the A3/B4 tests and requirements to some of the API heavy duty diesel tests? I wonder if it’s a case that both oils would do well, they are just tested to different (albeit both stringent) standards. A lot of diesel engines actually have a relatively low specific output compared to gasoline engines. They do work harder in certain applications, but the engine isn’t always as stressed.

Why would someone risk using a non HDEO in an HD diesel engine, just for the satisfaction seeing what would happen. Dumb really. HDEO is no more expensive, or available.

Would their be an immediate effect, likely not. In a pinch, in a zombie apocalyptic time, if you found a diesel truck at the oil change service shop that was mid streamed of an oil change, and somehow all they had was 5w20 Supertech, it would work, in the immediate.

But their is a reason they want "heavier" oils in heavy engines.

A guy here (I can never remember who it is) uses an A3/B4 in his Kubota diesel generator. The UOA’s look great.

What exactly is heavy duty vs light duty anyways? What is working harder? A ~100 hp diesel Jetta full of people or a diesel F350? The former would require the A3/B4.

And i would also wager that the jetta engine you speak of will not last as long as the Kubota 100 HP engine using HDEO. Hour for hour anyway, not even close.

 

[dlundblad]

Why would someone risk using a non HDEO in an HD diesel engine, just for the satisfaction seeing what would happen. Dumb really. HDEO is no more expensive, or available.

Would their be an immediate effect, likely not. In a pinch, in a zombie apocalyptic time, if you found a diesel truck at the oil change service shop that was mid streamed of an oil change, and somehow all they had was 5w20 Supertech, it would work, in the immediate.

But their is a reason they want "heavier" oils in heavy engines.


And i would also wager that the jetta engine you speak of will not last as long as the Kubota 100 HP engine using HDEO. Hour for hour anyway, not even close.

Your wager is debatable.

I just said a guy here posted decent results. No wager, feelings etc. It’s backed by science.

 

[kschachn]

Your wager is debatable.

I just said a guy here posted decent results. No wager, feelings etc. It’s backed by science.

The science of a $35 spectrographic analysis saying the oil done good?

 

[johnmyster]

The science of a $35 spectrographic analysis saying the oil done good?

Better yet, the spectrographic analysis saying whatever it says and then some work-from-home-UOA-report-editor writing "looks great, fine serviceable oil, check back in 10k" based on TBN, viscosity, and the boxes being mostly green.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Been comparing VOAs, Mobil Euro 0w40 seems to be right in line with dual rated 5w40 HDEOs.

Additives in range, HTHS in range, TBN in range, CST at 100c in range, etc. Obviously a VOA only shows a small piece of the puzzle and I'm not a tribologist, but nothing is standing out significantly different. I used to think that Euro oil would be fine in an HDEO application but maybe at a shorter OCI, but now I'm not sure a shorder OCI would be needed either.

Makes me wonder if the Euro oils would qualify as HDEOs, but it's not done for fear of stealing HDEO biz. Frequently the jugs cost the same, but Euro is 5l jug and synthetic HDEO is 1 gallon jug. Plus high/mid/low saps concerns.

15w40 is a different animal entirely, far less expensive. Makes up most of the market share, might also explain it there. No sense qualifying to HDEO standards when 5w40 HDEO isn't a huge chunk of the HDEO market.

 

[fantastic]

Been comparing VOAs, Mobil Euro 0w40 seems to be right in line with dual rated 5w40 HDEOs.

Additives in range, HTHS in range, TBN in range, CST at 100c in range, etc. Obviously a VOA only shows a small piece of the puzzle and I'm not a tribologist, but nothing is standing out significantly different. I used to think that Euro oil would be fine in an HDEO application but maybe at a shorter OCI, but now I'm not sure a shorder OCI would be needed either.

Makes me wonder if the Euro oils would qualify as HDEOs, but it's not done for fear of stealing HDEO biz. Frequently the jugs cost the same, but Euro is 5l jug and synthetic HDEO is 1 gallon jug. Plus high/mid/low saps concerns.

15w40 is a different animal entirely, far less expensive. Makes up most of the market share, might also explain it there. No sense qualifying to HDEO standards when 5w40 HDEO isn't a huge chunk of the HDEO market.

A 0w-40 A3/B4 would be sheared worse than what we already see in gasoline applications if run in an HDEO app. The 5w-40 would hold up to shear better in a diesel application. Give me the HDEO any day even if it was a 0w-40 HDEO.

 

[OM617YOTA]

A 0w-40 A3/B4 would be sheared worse than what we already see in gasoline applications if run in an HDEO app. The 5w-40 would hold up to shear better in a diesel application. Give me the HDEO any day even if it was a 0w-40 HDEO.

Not sure a HDEO application would shear oil any worse than a gasoline application. Maybe Ford/International's HEUI system. Maybe gear driven accessories.

Everything else is still turbo direct injection.

 

[johnmyster]

Not sure a HDEO application would shear oil any worse than a gasoline application. Maybe Ford/International's HEUI system. Maybe gear driven accessories.

Everything else is still turbo direct injection.

Cummins 6.7 main bearing diameter is 3.26". Toyota 2gr-fe is 2.09". Factor of 1.56.

Cummins 6.7 stroke is 4.88". Toyota 2gr is 3.27". Factor of 1.49.

Not that either of those engines is known for shearing oil, but 3000 rpm on a 6.7 is like 4500 on randomly chosen gasser. Gale Banks talks about oil shear at high RPM on diesels because of the large bearing diameters involved. Maybe not worse, but not any better at proportional RPMs.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Cummins 6.7 main bearing diameter is 3.26". Toyota 2gr-fe is 2.09". Factor of 1.56.

Cummins 6.7 stroke is 4.88". Toyota 2gr is 3.27". Factor of 1.49.

Not that either of those engines is known for shearing oil, but 3000 rpm on a 6.7 is like 4500 on randomly chosen gasser. Gale Banks talks about oil shear at high RPM on diesels because of the large bearing diameters involved. Maybe not worse, but not any better at proportional RPMs.

I'd also suspect the gasser will spend more time north of 4500rpms for a given miles driven than the Cummins will spend north of 3000rpms for the same given miles driven.

 

[fantastic]

Not sure a HDEO application would shear oil any worse than a gasoline application. Maybe Ford/International's HEUI system. Maybe gear driven accessories.

Everything else is still turbo direct injection.

Seems you've made up your mind & convinced yourself they are equal. If you are adamant about running a European A3/B4 oils in your HDEO applications have at it...just show the receipts to the next buyer.

 

[fantastic]

Not sure a HDEO application would shear oil any worse than a gasoline application. Maybe Ford/International's HEUI system. Maybe gear driven accessories.

Everything else is still turbo direct injection.

FYI HEUI on the International engine is still a turbo & direct injected.

 

[userfriendly]

Appreciate the thoughts.

Just to be clear, I wasn't asking about the 3.0 Duramax or commenting on that thread specifically. I was asking what would happen to a 6.6 Duramax, 5.9/6.7 Cummins, or 7.3/6.0/6.7 Powerstroke if an A3/B4 was used instead of CK4, and what exactly the differences between A3/B4 and CK4 are.

I tried a pcmo 10w40 in my 2011 6.6L LML, followed by a UOA.
The result? Nothing out of the ordinary, except the oil sheared out of grade as expected.
The same engine now deleted for the last 80,000 miles with a Bully Dog tuner and Banks this and that, has a 50/50 mix of 10W-30 and 20W-50. Both have low polymer additive levels compared to 10W-40.

 

[OM617YOTA]

Seems you've made up your mind & convinced yourself they are equal. If you are adamant about running a European A3/B4 oils in your HDEO applications have at it...just show the receipts to the next buyer.

No need to be a dill pickle about this.

I've not made up my mind on anything and have no desire or intent to use A3/B4 oils in HDEO applications, but so far the data I've seen shows it'll be fine. You've given suppositions and assumptions which I do not consider anywhere near equal to data.

FYI HEUI on the International engine is still a turbo & direct injected.

You've made my point, not yours. The engines are still very similar. I pointed out the HEUI system because of the extra demands it places on engine oil.

 

[OM617YOTA]

I tried a pcmo 10w40 in my 2011 6.6L LML, followed by a UOA.
The result? Nothing out of the ordinary, except the oil sheared out of grade as expected.
The same engine now deleted for the last 80,000 miles with a Bully Dog tuner and Banks this and that, has a 50/50 mix of 10W-30 and 20W-50. Both have low polymer additive levels compared to 10W-40.

Perfect, thank you.

 

[Japanese]

How many more facts do you want? I just cited two sources (one US and one AUS) that say ACEA A3/B4 is diesel engine oil. And then cited three different pages of the Mobil website. The thing is that most oils that are rated A3/B4 and specifically Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 also cover and Mercedes-Benz MB 229.51 tests.

The above is wrong. I meant MB 229.5, not MB 229.51. Most ACEA A3/B4 also cover MB 229.5 and specifically Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. That oil also covers BMW LL-01 and Porsche A40, and DexosR too.

 

[Japanese]

An American company wouldn’t suggest a Euro spec oil.

2025 Corvette Stingray LT2
2025 Cadillac CTS LT4
2025 Dodge HEMI V8 (Challenger Scat Pack / 392) (Challenger SRT Hellcat / Super Stock / Demon)
are are spec'd for 0W-40 which is technically a Euro oil.

 

[fantastic]

No need to be a dill pickle about this.

So you've started a thread asking about this topic and when you receive reasonable replies regarding your opinions it's time to start name calling ?

What are you trying to prove with this thread at this point because it seems you're really not receptive to learning about what could go wrong (the whole premise of the question)?

On second thought you've made it clear you have no interest... go run PCMO in your freight liner for all I care just don't come crying about "what went wrong" b/c some of us would have to say "told you so".

 

[Plumb Bob]

Alrighty, the PCEO in a Babymax thread got me thinking. Partly I'm bored, partly I'm genuinely curious.

Say someone has stock of a solid Euro Xw40 A3/B4, and HDEO just isn't available for whatever reason. Maybe they're too lazy to go to the store, or maybe it's the end of the world and they're sitting on 10,000 gallons of diesel fuel and a pile of Euro oil but no HDEO. Hypothetical, exact reason doesn't matter for the purpose of this exercise. Time to change oil in their Cummins/Powerstroke/Duramax.

Assume the engines are pre-emissions or deleted, high saps doesn't matter.

What would go wrong using A3/B4 in an HDEO application? Confident the engine won't blow up right away or even after significant miles, but what would happen? Oil shear down/deplete additives faster than HDEO and require shorter OCI?

The Mobil Euro 0w40 A3/B4 I have on hand is also CF rated. Looks like CI/CJ/CK ratings are mostly to do with emssions, so is that it? Do they actually protect any better than a CF, or are emissions it?

Here, from someone who does that.

Post in thread 'Very small construction fleet. What oil would YOU use?'

Feb 13, 2021

I Run Mobil 1 0W-40 on all my non DPF diesels and the following gas engines

It performs well and I can find it easily on shelves.

Kubota-d722 gensets
Cat - 3126B motorhome
Cat C11 gensets
Honda 2K's, yamaha3K, Kohler 20 KW air cooled gennies
Dodge (viper engine) 505 v10 - 700HP
Brigs 9.5
Nissan 5.6

• UncleDave

• 
• 

 

[johnmyster]

I'd also suspect the gasser will spend more time north of 4500rpms for a given miles driven than the Cummins will spend north of 3000rpms for the same given miles driven.

In my use the 1.5 ratio is pretty true around town. The one exception would be interstate towing with our camper. The truck goes down the interstate at 1800-2000 rpm for hours on end. The toyota certainly doesn't do 1.5 times that sustained on similar driving (minus the camper.)

Pretty typical of my experience driving medium duty box trucks on the highway. 2k doesn't sound like a lot but hours on end and large crank journals.

On one hand, it shouldn't be hard to get an oil to hold up in either use case. I'm just saying my diesel pistons and bearing journals don't really travel a shorter distance per mile because of the lower RPM...as the shearmongers among us would imply.

I do tend to think the vast majority of HDMO sold is 15w40, and nothing special. Aside from engines that are poorly designed, all the fuss about stringent specifications for PCMOs and HDMOs is overrated. They seem to hold up well enough to keep the engines together. There's nothing especially HD about HDMO.